[AAR] A Shootout at Amygnon VI Belt 1

[Amoni Panala]

At around 03:00 EVE time, six WTs from Occupation showed up in Amygnon and Jufvitte. Most people were content to watch them, but people were hesitant engage. I think the problem is that without someone stepping up to FC, people are happy to report on names, locations, and ships; they don't want to engage unless there is a fleet. Thing is, the Occupation doesn't have the numbers to engage a fleet and (unlike P I R A T) they aren't trying to go for a cheap kill. They want a relatively even match and they want to try to fight us.

Strategic

1. They fly caracals with T2 modules and fleet issue missiles making their ships average at about 37mil ISK each. My newbie self can't comprehend spending that much on one ship.
2. They spend a lot of time flying from tactical to tactical positioned some distance off of a structure
3. They shot at Karpinski Labs when it took us 30+ minutes to assemble a four-person gang take on their four-person gang
4. Our caracals are not meant for small gang or solo PvP. In fact, they are almost completely useless in anything other than a fully supported fleet (i.e. has EWAR, logi, and ECM set up).
5. This was Agent Clark's caracal fit:

Spoiler

[Caracal, Caracal]
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Power Diagnostic System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Warp Disruptor II
Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Medium Compact Pb-Acid Cap Battery
50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher
Prototype 'Arbalest' Rapid Light Missile Launcher

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I




Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile x720
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile x1000
Nanite Repair Paste x80
Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile x1000
Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile x1905

As you can see, it's a T1 cruiser outfitted with most T2 rigs except in the launchers which are T1M4. Judging by the fact that he sacrificed a midslot for that cap battery, I'd guess T2 missile launchers take too much cap for him to use. I do like his use of shield extenders. Shield extenders, unlike hardeners, are passive and therefore do not need to be turned on before engaging. Hardeners are fine when in a big fleet and you have some sense that it will be obvious when to start shooting, but in my experience they're a huge liability for small gang or solo-PvP. Even roaming fleets could potentially be totally screwed if they were blopped by a bigger fleet. In the time it takes to activate the hardener, a big enough ship can alpha a ship that relies on hardeners for a significant portion of its shield buffer.

Reflection

Any time we form up for a big QRF like we have when P I R A T is making the rounds, we scare them off: they dock up, they leave system, and they log off. I don't think they have that many of their corp logged in at the same time. The numbers we see popping up in local represent the numbers they can muster at the time. As they state in their corp bio, they're a casual PvP corp. They're just trying to find content like the rest of us. They aren't looking to pad their killboards with ventures and MTUs

Our gang lost four cruisers, we took out two of theirs (despite my low DPS, I managed to get final blow on Agent Clark). I think theirs cost as much if not more than the four of ours, but I've been told others fly much more expensive versions of the ships I fly so I can't be sure.

Things I would like Unistas to keep in mind moving forward

The Occupation is not P I R A T. They are not here to pick off squishy targets, they're looking for a fair fight. That's why they run away when they know they're outnumbered. Our QRFs are great, but they take forever to form-up and if it were their intention to do destroy something valuable to us they could have reinforced one of our structures by now. As I alluded to earlier, our HSC doctrine ships are not suited for the kind of war the Occupation wants from us. In order to get the most out of this war we need to use LSC tactics. We need to take them on in small gangs and our ships need to be outfitted as such.

This is a huge learning opportunity that doesn't have to be negative. If we treat the Occupation like we do P I R A T then we could miss a huge opportunity to have some fun with another corp. This is a chance for people with freshman and sophomore titles to get some PvP in to demonstrate their understanding of that aspect of the game.

Agent Clark sent me 10mil ISK after our fight which will almost entirely cover the cost of replacing the ship I lost (especially after I apply for SRP). I've heard of people doing this, but this is the first time someone's done it for me. I thought it was really nice and I hope someday I can pay it forward.

Things I would like Diplo to address

The Occupation has been fairly patient with us as we take our sweet, sweet time forming up and deciding on a course of action. Today they decided that because we were taking too long they were going to take a few shots at Karpinsky Labs. They didn't really do much damage, but I was fuming mad after they did that because my first major encounter with WTs was when P I R A T tried to force that very same structure into reinforcing. I wanted to eviscerate them and salt the earth with the ground up wrecks of their hulls when they did that. Rules of engagement be damned, I'm tired of feeling like people can take advantage of our rules of engagement. If they want fun and fair fights, then I would want to see that they agree to these two very basic rules of engagement.

1. No structure bashing, not unless they want us to take a scorched earth approach to this war.
2. No podding (someone got a little too excited and podded one of them, so I'm told)

I think that if the Occupation wants better fights from us, Diplo should tell them that us LSC folks are always down for small skirmishes though we generally fight in frigates, not cruisers (their preferred class of ship). Give them our address and tell 'em to bring snacks, we'll have a good time.

TL;DR - There was a small skirmish between some cruisers from our side and their, we lost some and they did too. They were super nice, friendly, and the only thing I wish they hadn't done was shoot at Karpinsky Labs. Also, LSC is recruiting.

P.S. - We need more people to step up and become FCs. We have the FCC to cultivate and develop people into FCs and I think if we had more people who were willing to take up the mantle, we could be forming fleets and having more fun with a corp that's looking to play with us in fair fight. I'm 3 days until I'm eligible to apply for my freshman title. Once I have that title, I'm applying for the FCC. I encourage anyone and everyone who has even the slightest inkling that they might want to lead fleets, or just have the knowledge and experience of FCing to apply to the FCC.

[Guiliano Thellere]

Thanks for your feedback and your are very right, this war is a great learning opportunity as these are a great bunch of guys who are just up for some fun. Im am chatting with these guys a great deal currently and its great being able to see feedback from both sides of this coin. Please don't concern yourself too much with Diplomacy issues. Negotiations were made before this war even started, details of which I won't go in to here, however I will address your two concerns as best as I can;

1. No structure bashing, not unless they want us to take a scorched earth approach to this war.
2. No podding (someone got a little too excited and podded one of them, so I'm told)

1. This was not Structure bashing. This was taking a few pot shots as a way to garner content. It's not necessarily a tactic I agree with and it is certainly against our ROE regarding other structures and how we as a Uni community approach content generation. However it is a tactic used by some pilots across the game and not one I will look to stop. Do not get wound up by this tactic, it will never be more than just pot shots from these guys.
2. It is practically impossible to lose a pod in high security space and this skill is an important one to learn. We are at war and so it would be extremely prudent not to undock in an expensive clone if you are doing so in order to fight. We are looking at putting on extra pod saver classes however I will also not be looking to take killing pods off the table as at the end of the day it is a good chance for both sides to practice a much needed skill.

[Durnik Risalo]

As you can see, it's a T1 cruiser outfitted with most T2 rigs except in the launchers which are T1M4. Judging by the fact that he sacrificed a midslot for that cap battery, I'd guess T2 missile launchers take too much cap for him to use. I do like his use of shield extenders. Shield extenders, unlike hardeners, are passive and therefore do not need to be turned on before engaging. Hardeners are fine when in a big fleet and you have some sense that it will be obvious when to start shooting, but in my experience they're a huge liability for small gang or solo-PvP. Even roaming fleets could potentially be totally screwed if they were blopped by a bigger fleet. In the time it takes to activate the hardener, a big enough ship can alpha a ship that relies on hardeners for a significant portion of its shield buffer.

In general, I agree with your opinions. However, I think the above statements are either 1) slightly wrong, or 2) not fully accurate -- at least based on my understanding of tank modules and other Eve Online mechanics.

As you state, shield hardeners in general can sometimes not be good for solo or small gangs -- but not as I understand your arguments, because I think they are sometimes (usually?) good for solo/gangs. Shield hardeners are beneficial when used by ships catching repairs -- whether remote repairs or self-repairs -- due to the EHP magnifications in addition to the damage reduction capabilities that apply in all situations: solo, group, or fleet. And usually solo and small gangs in fact do have self-repairers since they don't always have dedicated logi.

As for the other points of your argument, I agree they can sometimes be a factor, but no more then other things. I would even argue that they matter to a very low degree (I'm sure others will/may disagree on the degree of importance). Basically, if you argue that timing of module initiation is a major reason to not like hardeners, then I'd say the timing of target acquisition/lock, speed tanking, damage application, network latency, and other metrics matter just as much if not more than just shield hardeners activation delay.

So, to talk to the "issue" that I think you are possibly alluding to is that of using the wrong doctrine for the wrong reasons and situations. Our campus doctrines have a goal and purpose unique to expected combat engagements. HSC, based on their tank specifications (among other differences), is oriented more to fleet engagements (and therefore having dedicated logi). I'm not up on LSC doctrines so they may be more gang oriented in their fitting.

The problem, as I see it, is that most of our doctrines and contracts are for fleet oriented situations. Therefore, they most likely will be fitted non-optimally, and possibly critically bad when used in a solo or gang situation. This is probably part of the reason why HSC is going through a "redesign" of their doctrines -- but I'm not sure (since I'm not involved). We certainly need fleet doctrines, but I would agree that having more contracts (or doctrines, if you wish) for solo/gang fits would be beneficial -- especially if we aren't going to have stocked local markets. After all, its difficult to tell our WTs to come back in 3-4 days after our purchases have been bought and shipped from Jita.

[Amoni Panala]

Just to clarify, there is nothing wrong with our HSC doctrine. I don't have a problem with it. I pointed out the problem I saw for me trying to engage other T1 cruisers because I noticed that our opponents were fitted more appropriately for the kind of small gang fight they wanted. Our doctrine is good for bigger fleet compositions where EWAR, logi, and the like are available but what I'm trying to communicate is that I really learned how this doctrine fit is specifically geared towards a certain kind of fighting and it's my personal opinion that if I were to adjust the fit for small-gang fighting I'd switch to a passive shield buffer if possible. Your point about hardeners having higher EHP and damage reduction is well put, though I need to run simulated fits just to see how much is lost in going passive.

I think we're actually agreeing for the most part but we're coming from two different angles and really saying the same thing, unless I'm misunderstanding your point.

[Gergoran Moussou]

I agree with a lot of your stuff. We had a fun fight. But with the anger over shooting at Karpinski, it's just a game and they're not trying to ruin other people's enjoyment of the game like P I R A T or CODE.

I've been throwing out a couple of ideas for HSC doctrines since the P I R A T structure defense. My best idea (as someone who has been playing for less than three months) is that maybe the QRF for something like that should have scripted HIC's available (I'm also not keen on using RLML Caracals to engage Leshaks, but I've heard stuff about Ares working on a Ferox doctrine) to make up for the fact that our lack of tackle (only one or two Atrons) in that cruiser/Griffin fleet prevented us from getting as many kills as we otherwise would have (as much as we sent a clear message between that and the subsequent structure attack, we would have sent a clearer message if we managed to take down more than just logi, since the Leshaks, Proteus, and Legion in that fight are all more expensive ships). This might be overkill, though.

We should also probably have doctrines for adversaries (I don't consider them enemies, more casual war buddies) like The Occupation.

I'm trying to get into FC'ing (mostly to make sure that there are fleets available when I am available). So I'd love to arrange some frigate fights with these guys. And the LSC Tormentors definitely seem like one that I'd like to use. I've been a fan of the ship basically since I started playing (since this is an Amarr character) and I definitely wouldn't want to run the BLAP Merlins for a small frigate fight. Lack of webs, slow ship (by frigate standards), and extremely short range together mean that it would probably be a recipe for disaster if they brought anything not fitted like that. Or maybe I'd want to arrange destroyer fights with brawling Dragoons, a fit idea that I've been working on purely theoretically and want to try.

With regard to LSC recruiting, I'd love to participate in LSC events whenever I notice them in my calendar and they fit my schedule (hasn't really happened yet, unfortunately). I'm often doing solo roams in the LowSec areas in between Eugales and Amygnon anyway. I just keep all of my stuff in Amygnon and fully moving would take a lot of work.

[Tal Tracyn]

Your point about hardeners having higher EHP and damage reduction is well put, though I need to run simulated fits just to see how much is lost in going passive.

Our BLAP caracal fit has a lot more EHP than theres does so in a 1v1 it would win hands down.
Not sure what you mean by a passive shield fit ?
Passive regen ? that REALLY dosn't work in a PVP situation as you would loose massive dps and they would kill you before you can kill them.
Sure the BLAP fit is all buffer and yes it's for fleets so you can catch reps but it's designed like that so you can take hits from another fleet primarying you where as a passive regen fit would just melt under an enemy fleets fire.

Just remember ship fits are done for a reason and if you turn up in something different the FC does have the option to not allow you to come or you just die way to fast or you make yourself a liability to the fleet.

[Amoni Panala]

Passive regen ? that REALLY dosn't work in a PVP situation as you would loose massive dps and they would kill you before you can kill them.
Sure the BLAP fit is all buffer and yes it's for fleets so you can catch reps but it's designed like that so you can take hits from another fleet primarying you where as a passive regen fit would just melt under an enemy fleets fire.

Shield extenders are passive modules, shield hardeners are active modules; that's all I was meaning by it though I see the confusion.

Just remember ship fits are done for a reason and if you turn up in something different the FC does have the option to not allow you to come or you just die way to fast or you make yourself a liability to the fleet.

I don't know exactly why, I'm feeling like people are completely missing my point and it's a wee bit frustrating because this is the second time I've had to re-articulate: This wasn't about whether I like HSCs doctrine or if I think the caracal fit was good/bad. I happen to love HSC's doctrine and I can't wait for more opportunities to fly logi. I was commenting on how the this fight with Occupation's caracals really drove home the point that each fit has it's purpose and the HSC doctrine is not meant for the kind of small gang warfare that Occupation wants.

[Tal Tracyn]

I think the confusion is you are using terms that we don't use.
We don't see fits that have active hardeners as an 'Active' fit or shield extenders as a 'passive' fit.
Shield extenders in fits are classed as a buffer fit which means a ship has a lot of raw EHP.
Active fits are fits that have a repair module.Be it a shield booster or an armour repairer.
Passive fits are fits that regenerate shields over time and are fitting to maximise this effect.

Hope that clears things up

[O'Hearn]

Thanks for the hero-level post, Amoni. Good stuff!

[Rose Alice]

As someone who actually saw some of the fight (the alt is not in eve-uni anymore but sometimes lives in amyg) that happened at the citadels, I have a few points to make.
Them shooting the citadel was not a big deal overall, either it would cause a reaction right there and then, or if it did reinforce the citadel (unlikely due to their damage output) the timer would either force a fight for them (if it is their timezone) or it will pass without being shot at.

The comments made are right with only 3 caracals and a single atron for tackle it was going to be hard to hold down the caracal especially with the rapid light missile.
A single scythe as a logistic could have potentially kept an atron to hold tackle of Agent Clark or Nervosa who was flying the more expensive Cynabal which was artillery fit you could have gotten under its guns to hold tackle.

overall the right against The Occupation. is very different from P I R A T, The Occupation. is very nano-y fit designed to force smaller faster ships to burn outside of rep range to keep tackle while the rapid lights and the artillery fit from the Cynabal is designed to power through the reps of any logi that could be on field.

overall the fights against The Occupation. seems to be fairly civil from what I can see and looks to be good for the high sec campus to help get people to learn and start to fight. it was a bit sad to see only 4 or 5 people out fighting when there is another 5 ish people sitting the e-uni 101 citadels.