[AAR] Surprise! Vexors!

[Glen Burney]

I hopped on with short notice hoping to get some fleet action going, and upon logging in to Heydieles was pumped to see 16 unistas in system! About 5 seconds after that Penelore was messaging me asking me to lead a gatecamp...
But this was no regular dirtbag thrasher gatecamp!

Roam members (17)

Spoiler

Abraham Schereau - Vexor
Auric Fulcrum - Ashimmu
Cpn Reynolds - Svipul
Enigmatic Online - Vexor
Esca Sinak
Glen Burney - Magus
John Parmelee - Vexor
Kaluma Asanari - Celestis
KraK Oziane - Keres
Neemo Beer - Vexor
Penelore - Vexor
Savannah Tokila - Vexor
Sone Eto - Vexor
XScornX - Rifter
YooJin Moon - Vexor
Zaragam Ardishapur - Omen Navy Issue
lobevaser - Vexor

So they were RR Vexors, which are a really great comp, and one I have been wanting to try. The classroom portion was already complete, but we continued the educations during our roam, which start in Abune, on the HEY gate, we set up there and started to give instruction, on-grid tacticals, how to deal with weapons timers, suspect timers, etc. We learned that only a certain number of drones could be "assigned" to our instalock svipul, so we also assigned some to our ashimmu. Still, I would have liked our prey to die more quickly...

Kills and Losses

(00:52:45) Abune
Catalyst +16.31m
Cormorant +5.6m
Incursus +10.56m

Then we started poking our way up the pipe, getting a line to a bunch of cruisers from various groups killing stuff in VLI, so we turned left at Pynekastoh and moved toward Nenn. There, things got a bit hairy. I was kind of scouting for the fleet myself in Nenn, while the fleet waited in HIK. First, our fleet killed a tristan, good enough. Then there was a Stabber and a Brutix on the gate, and that seemed excellent. The Stabber jumped in to our setup camp. I did order the camp to kill the stabber, but then 1, 2, and 3 carriers landed on gate. And a Bhalgorn. And whatnot. It was clearly too much so I ordered the fleet to NOT shoot the stabber and standby. When I heard someone say "redbox" I asked the fleet to jump through from HIK into NEN.

But a few people misunderstood, and had already engage in HIK I guess, because not everyone made it through into NEN, we lost 2 ships there (Rifter and ONI). We held cloak in NEN and I gave us a fleetwarp (there wasn't much tackle on the gate) and all of us got out except our awesome webber, the Ashimmu. Our fleetwarp took us to a ping, and I was bouncing us around pings on-gate with the enemy, trying to get a target of opportunity, but that resulted in 1 more Vexor getting caught.

I have replayed the scenario a bunch. I was shocked to see 3 carriers on grid there. The situation went from "here's some stuff we can fight" to "oh man, we need to clear out of here". My usual "Clear out of here" is wait at a ping on the gate, and that was not really a good idea with our big cruisers. So my immediate improvement for next time is to take better care of my fleet. It's alot easier to do that with destroyers!

The other improvement is that I was actually in a boosher. If we had stayed balled up, we could have done some damage. The carrier response time is pretty slow, so we maybe could have yolod into that bhalgorn / ashimmu / kikimora before the carriers got out there, then we could have booshed away? I was definitely in a "smash and grab" mindset, and I would have benefited from considering more "fleet fight" concepts?

Uni SRP is available for the lost Vexors, and for the Ashimmu and ONI, if you didn't get UNI SRP , and you want some, just message me in-game and i'll throw some isk.

(01:21:05) Hikkoken, Nennamaila
Tristan +16.12m
Rifter -11.62m
Vexor -44.55m
Omen Navy Issue -150.53m
Ashimmu -100.03m
Vexor -43.85m
Vexor -33.19m
Capsule -0.01m

In Okkamon, we did some classic Vanguard baiting in a medium, but the fight never escalated.

(01:48:52) Okkamon
Cormorant +5.46m
Moa +17.52m

We went back to Tama to take a break then see what we could fight, but I actually ran into some IRL business and I could not come back for about 40 minutes, which I am sorry for, but I was indeed torn away.... I WILL do this fleet again though, with the goal of getting an actual goodfite out of it. Looks like some people lost Vexors on the way home:

(02:56:08) Tannolen
Vexor -43.12m
Vexor -43.14m

Bah... Also for next time, I won't abandon everyone in Tama... Overall I wish we had just posted up in a medium in NENN and just waited for some action, or like I said, just stood our ground in the Hikkoken gate in Nenn, carriers be damned.
Stats
ISK Destroyed: 71,565,767.42
ISK Lost: 470,049,848.19
ISK Delta: -398,484,080.77
Efficiency: 13.213%

[Penelore]

High praise for popping on and taking over this fleet. Bob blessed us with timing.
Overall a good time and very much a continuation of the "class" feeling we had going with the logi class in fleet format. Thanks for spending so much time covering the basics of low sec combat like gate guns and sec status for our newbros.

Now... onto things I love seeing in this AAR.

We learned that only a certain number of drones could be "assigned" to our instalock svipul, so we also assigned some to our ashimmu. Still, I would have liked our prey to die more quickly...

I think there was some issues with assigning drone bunny here and I'm not sure for these type of engagements this was the things to do. I found myself attacking with my drones independent of the drone bunny because it was faster. I think we should consider testing some mechanics on drone bunnies. The effectiveness of this seemed poor.

My usual "Clear out of here" is wait at a ping on the gate, and that was not really a good idea with our big cruisers. So my immediate improvement for next time is to take better care of my fleet. It's a lot easier to do that with destroyers!

I think this will naturally start to come as you get out of your comfort zone and start flying new comps more often. Sometimes it is to easy to get used to one thing and know where you can get a bit lazy. These were much slower ships then you are used to and I could see that frustrating you at times. Good job recognizing this.

The other improvement is that I was actually in a boosher. If we had stayed balled up, we could have done some damage. The carrier response time is pretty slow, so we maybe could have yolod into that bhalgorn / ashimmu / kikimora before the carriers got out there, then we could have booshed away? I was definitely in a "smash and grab" mindset, and I would have benefited from considering more "fleet fight" concepts?

There is always a coulda woulda shoulda in every fight. Once again the take away here is getting out of the comfort zone and looking realistically at the strengths and weaknesses of the fleet comp. One of its strength was you in a boosher. I noticed when you were trying to pin down the kiki by baiting out those two vexors your attack pattern was the same as you normally do, if you missed your target range you went for a re-ping. But with the boosher that last attempt to catch him put us in range to give chase and then boosh. Just like you though... coulda woulda shoulda insights often come to late.

Overall I wish we had just posted up in a medium in NENN and just waited for some action, or like I said, just stood our ground in the Hikkoken gate in Nenn, carriers be damned.

Lastly I think this can be very productive way to fight also. I was considering this approach before you logged on... Unistas will attract attention and if your "learning goals" with the fleet were to test/train ewar and logistics and/or challenge yourself as an FC to a new doctrine, this kind of fighting can be very fun and productive to the goals at hand.

Love to see you getting out of #easymode and back into enjoying and improving your FCing Glen. Well thought out AAR. And as always... a pleasure.

[Budda Sereda]

Few things I was told, but never tried or validated about drone bunnies:
1. You can't assign more than 50 drones to 1 bunny.
2. Drone bunny won't force drones to engage if that would cause the drone owner to worsen his sec status. This item makes drone bunny based fleet a very hard thing to execute.

[Glen Burney]

Thanks for that detail Budda. If the 2nd one is true (drones will not force the owner to lose sec status), then a drone bunny in a lowsec gatecamp is useless.... unless the drone owner is true -10 (can't get worse!)

[lobevaser]

Kill the stabber command was made . OK we got this.
Then 1 Carrier warps in , OK we can tank that .

Eeeeekkk
2nd carriers warps in ... waits for commands from the FC .

3rd carrier warps in and launch fighters . errrr I have been in this type of engagement before. Not good . Having a Mommy I am scared moment. Pucker factor is going way up. Then the FC said jump jump jump . Yes I lived. Aw crap a few could not jump .

I have replayed the scenario a bunch. I was shocked to see 3 carriers on grid there. The situation went from "here's some stuff we can fight" to "oh man, we need to clear out of here". My usual "Clear out of here" is wait at a ping on the gate, and that was not really a good idea with our big cruisers. So my immediate improvement for next time is to take better care of my fleet. It's alot easier to do that with destroyers!

I can't remember if the " Anchor Up " command was made. TBH when I seen those fighters on my overview I burned to get on the gate and waited for the FC to say jump jump jump.

I think Glen did an all-some Job. Yes we lost a few do too weapons timers. I am like Glen ..... WTH carriers . That is the time I wish we had a " Hot Drop " ready .

Even though I was Killed on the way home . I still had fun and enjoyed the fleet.

[Kaluma Asanari]

Thanks for that detail Budda. If the 2nd one is true (drones will not force the owner to lose sec status), then a drone bunny in a lowsec gatecamp is useless.... unless the drone owner is true -10 (can't get worse!)

We should certainly test out the 2nd item and report findings back on this thread. Not only would that make out gatecamp strategy here moot, it might also explain why folks who directly engaged their own drones got action sooner. I wonder if there's a timing thing, like, you have my drones, you engage, but I'm currently not flashy, so they don't. Then, I engage my own weapons a few ticks later, now I'm flashy- from that point on, do you have control of my drones on any future commands, with the exception of attacking in a way that would again lower sec status? I could see such an implementation- and worth an experiment.

[Savannah Tokila]

Overall great fleet imo,

the one thing that I noticed wasn't as clear as it could've been, is if we should've kept bouncing bc we were taking gate guns, or stay on grid, and just rep through it, because we had the repping power to do it as some suggested, and we were in slow cruisers, so pinging actually took a while, there were suggestions for both holding and pinging, I might've missed it as im not yet too familiar with your voice, but a clear, no we'll continue pinging or no well just be repping through it would've been nice.

[Budda Sereda]

Thanks for that detail Budda. If the 2nd one is true (drones will not force the owner to lose sec status), then a drone bunny in a lowsec gatecamp is useless.... unless the drone owner is true -10 (can't get worse!)

We should certainly test out the 2nd item and report findings back on this thread. Not only would that make out gatecamp strategy here moot, it might also explain why folks who directly engaged their own drones got action sooner. I wonder if there's a timing thing, like, you have my drones, you engage, but I'm currently not flashy, so they don't. Then, I engage my own weapons a few ticks later, now I'm flashy- from that point on, do you have control of my drones on any future commands, with the exception of attacking in a way that would again lower sec status? I could see such an implementation- and worth an experiment.

Few more use-cases to test:
- will your drones work if you have sec status -10.0 (or less than -5)?
- will drones work if you are already flashy?

I'd be happy to practice, if someone going to organize this, please DM me in the game of forum 1-2 days in advance.

[Cpn Reynolds]

Drone bunny issues aside, I think the comp has a lot of potential. I was flying the Insta-locking Svipul, and the Vexors had no problem holding me up from gate guns. The fit was an experimental one, designed specifically for this fleet, and I quite like how it performed.

Fit for those interested:

Spoiler

[Svipul, Insta-Point Armor]

Damage Control II
Dark Blood Energized Explosive Membrane
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II

250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
[Empty High slot]

Small Ancillary Current Router I
Small Targeting System Subcontroller II
Small Anti-Kinetic Pump II


Quake S x1000
Tremor S x1000
Nanite Repair Paste x50
Republic Fleet EMP S x1000
Republic Fleet Fusion S x1000
Republic Fleet Phased Plasma S x1000

[Ann'Dra Padecain]

Hi, we've encountered the drone bunny scenario once before in a fleet-fight with Kora.
https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 13#p873355

Issue seems timers rather than sec-status...

Fixed auto-correct...