[AAR] Thursday Things 3/1

[Archemide]

Roam members (31)

Spoiler

Abraham Schereau - Caracal
Anducio Grandoli - Osprey
Archemide - Bellicose
Breenie Shi - Bellicose
Coaxster - Punisher
Cpn Reynolds - Thrasher, Stiletto
Drebin 679 - Osprey
Ged Sinak - Jackdaw
Glen Burney - Punisher, Republic Fleet Firetail, Stiletto
Ievos - Osprey
Ithugor Wells
Kaluma Asanari - Bellicose
Kirsid Tannaway - Caracal
Ky Hanomaa - Caracal
Leech Locke - Caracal
Malus Pandus - Caracal
Markku Laaksonen - Caracal
Neemo Beer - Caracal
Penelore - Osprey
Poul Vynneve - Caracal
Rhiannon Ad Astra - Caracal
Rodrigo Rosenthal
Ryder Malum - Bellicose
Satoshi Tomeii - Sabre
Space Warfare Development - Bifrost
Staberinde - Raven
Thorkel Forste - Bellicose
Tokumei Kumiai - Osprey
Trillian Arnolles - Caracal
Z0X Ambrye - Stiletto
jammer Atruin - Bellicose

Kills and Losses

(01:57:16) Stacmon
Hyena +124.67m
Capsule +0.01m

Captain started the fleet off with some elite PvP.

(03:05:21) TU-RI6
Rattlesnake +899.46m
Capsule +40.14m

We headed into our wormhole, and went towards a system with a high rat count. Imagine our surprise when this guy was coming out of that system! Maybe this was his travel fit Rattle? Idk, a weird fit.

However, he dropped a ton of loot. I should've dropped the loot off at a safe (because no one will scan down one can) or used asset saftey to get it out so that if we died (spoiler alert, we did), we didn't lose all of the bling loot.

(03:15:06) 18-GZM
Vigilant +244.97m
Capsule +0.01m

This vigilant was afk? Just sitting on a gate? Free kills are free.

Aaaaand then the big fight. Scout found these guys +1 from us. I was happy to let them come into us and tear them up that way. They had ~10 Feroxes, two Basis, and a bait drake to our 30 man fleet. Their bait Drake came into us, and then promptly noped out. They told our scouts (in local) that we had to come into them. I had DD go first, and had logi wait like 10seconds before following us in so they didn't get immediately popped.

Here's my big mistake. I immediately broke cloak after warping in, and was primaried. I should've done like my logi (and I should've had snowflakes do this too) hold gate cloak for 10 seconds. I called for ECM drones (from the Caracals) to go on the Basi that we weren't shooting, and all dps on the Basi we were.

It looks like we killed the first Basi pretty quickly, so I'm not sure why the rest of the fight went quite as badly as it did. I know that the second Basi warped off and back at one point.

Other thoughts: I was going to have us kite out. Looking on the killmails now, Feroxes are almost always rail fit (and were in this case). We could've burned in close & used transversal to mitigate damage because missiles don't care about range.

Drebin has kindly put up this recording if anyone wants to look at the fight from a logi perspective and give some advice as to what else could've been improved.

(03:21:39) R3-K7K
Caracal -31.76m
Capsule -0.01m
Bellicose -33.26m
Bellicose -34.79m
Bellicose -19.03m
Bellicose -37.82m
Bellicose -26.7m
Basilisk +278.26m
Bellicose -45.03m
Osprey -20.83m
Caracal -30.5m
Osprey -20.82m
Caracal -33.29m
Osprey -21.88m
Bifrost -148.14m
Caracal -31.77m
Osprey -320.32m
Osprey -17.9m
Caracal -21.45m
Caracal -32.07m
Sabre -89.86m
Caracal -33.06m
Caracal -32.25m
Caracal -29.77m
Capsule -79.96m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.81m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 1,587,519,183.14
ISK Lost: 1,193,142,508.75
ISK Delta: 394,376,674.39
Efficiency: 57.091%

[Budda Sereda]

Good recording... The same day I had my fleet and tried to meet with you guys, but unfortunately, you guys moved into NS

Nice recording of the fight, let me express my thoughts on this.

1. I'd recommend the WHOLE fleet jump together, but ensure logies decloak a bit late. And maybe not 10 seconds, but just like 3-5, once fleet starts broadcasting for reps and taking damage. Why? Because jumping and loading grid takes good 10 seconds...

2. I'd not recommend anchoring fleet on yourself unless you fly something like a Monitor. Experienced FCs are capable to see who is the anchor and often snipe it first. Also, you better focus on picking right targets, etc and with in the 30 men fleet you should have anchor, better even 2-3

3. Don't say "anchor on me", even you are FC or Logy FC: develop a habbit of saying about yourself as a third person.

4. Kudos to Logy FC: quickly pulled his squad away, controlled cap chain. GJ! But,... that does not help much in a fight against Feroxes: they have range long enough.

5. Recommendation to logy pilots:
- overheat your sensor booster if you jammed
- don't use watchlist, unless you are in 15 men fleet, watch broadcasts.
- overheat your Invulnerability Fields once started taking damage: it gives you extra resist and EHP and often (maybe not this time) might be enough to survive.

Other things: I honestly don't understand, why Caracals fleet needs Bellicoses. Light Missiles apply almost perfectly to anything that would fight cruisers... Would be better to get a few more Caracals instead (or Command Dessies + Ceptors).

I'm not sure why the rest of the fight went quite as badly as it did. I know that the second Basi warped off and back at one point.

From one side, you had a 30 men fleet. From another: let's do some math. You had 1 scout, 1 Command Dessie, 1 Dictor, 5 logies - this is already -8 people. 6 Bellicose - minus 6 more. this leaves you with 17 men. -Raven, -Punisher, -Thrasher, -Jackdaw, and you ended up with a dozen of DPS ships (at least I see 9 Caracals killed).
While 1st Basi was killed, fleet lost 6 ships. and ... Feroxes are tanky 75k EHP, vs 20 from Caracal. And have twice higher DPS
Also, they had EC drones. Logies were jammed for quite awhile. Once logies were killed, those drones went on DPS.

You probably should have run after you killed a basi.

Other thoughts: I was going to have our kite out. Looking on the killmails now, Feroxes are almost always rail fit (and were in this case). We could've burned in close & used transversal to mitigate damage because missiles don't care about range.

From the recording, I see that Feroxes were sitting at 0 or at 10km to the gate. Strange and very surprising... maybe they wanted to use short range ammo for higher DPS... dunno.
Burning on Feroxes ... is probably not the best idea: this would decrease the transversal and make Feroxes apply better. You better orbit them at a solid range. A good option would be to ask your anchor to spiral the fleet out. Or just ask fleet to orbit the primary at whatever range you were at (you can't put too much further due to low missile skills of newbros).

I believe you guys were slightly depressed... I guess I would be too.

But, please don't be. I'm sure you all received SRP and with E-Uni SRP (unless it has been changed last year) each of you makes a profit by losing a BLAP ship.

So, keep flying: this is a great experience. I'd love to get similar fights, rather than only BLAPing ratters.

One more thing: people will always sell you bulls..t: you have more people, you engage. Don't buy that. Unistas OFTEN has many pilots with low skills: they have less ehp, dps, less of everything. They also lack piloting skills, slow executing anchor command, slow following broadcast and broadcasting for reps.

In this engagement you had 10 Caracals+6 Bellicoses vs 10 Feroxes... Does this still sound a fair fight? Khm...
It probably felt "we are 30 men fleet", but realistically, you had barely 15 DPS ships, and I'm sure a quoter of those were very new bros.

Keep flying and learning!!!

P.S How I would engage that? TBH, I guess I'd do the same mistake and jumped into those Feroxes, but I"d orbit them like crazy. And OH fields for more EHP.

P.P.S. A better option would be to orbit the gate at 30 and try getting them jump into you. Ask a ceptor pilot to make a tactical BM on the other side of the gate. Jump through and warp to it (do the fleet warp), make sure the gate is not bubbled. Or tried to catch a struggler when they eventually give up to sit on a gate. I believe, Glen was with the fleet: he should be capable of catching up a Ferox who is slow to warp away

[Archemide]

Thanks for the feedback.

Something to note though: This was not BLAP Caracals. Bellicoses were HML fit and designed to be the primary DD ship. They easily out-dps the Caracals. The fleet was designed to have the exact opposite ratio, actually (15 Bellis and 8 Caracals). That didn't end up happening (I think because Stac ran out of Bellicoses?).

2. I'd not recommend anchoring fleet on yourself unless you fly something like a Monitor. Experienced FCs are capable to see who is the anchor and often snipe it first. Also, you better focus on picking right targets, etc and with in the 30 men fleet you should have anchor, better even 2-3

Unfortunately, this isn't a realistic goal on most uni fleets. The pilots with enough experience to be effective anchors tend to be flying the snowflake support ships.

From the recording, I see that Feroxes were sitting at 0 or at 10km to the gate. Strange and very surprising... maybe they wanted to use short range ammo for higher DPS... dunno.
Burning on Feroxes ... is probably not the best idea: this would decrease the transversal and make Feroxes apply better. You better orbit them at a solid range. A good option would be to ask your anchor to spiral the fleet out. Or just ask fleet to orbit the primary at whatever range you were at (you can't put too much further due to low missile skills of newbros).

Wouldn't orbiting at 5-10km have far more transversal than trying to orbit at 20-30km?

[Archemide]

Oh, and re: jumping into them. The original goal was to have them jump into us. They brought in their bait/scout drake to do just that and noped out.

We waited 3-4 min, and our scouts with them reported that they said in local that we had to jump into them. Given the choice between not fighting them and jumping into them, I was willing to jump into them.

[Budda Sereda]

I have some further comments, please don't accept them as a critisism. Just thoughts, which I hope help somebody to get better. Again, I personally LOVE E-Uni and appreciate all teaching efforts! But we all have to keep learning. So, please accept this constructively.

Something to note though: This was not BLAP Caracals.

I'm curious why?

Bellicoses were HML fit and designed to be the primary DD ship. They easily out-dps the Caracals. The fleet was designed to have the exact opposite ratio, actually (15 Bellis and 8 Caracals). That didn't end up happening (I think because Stac ran out of Bellicoses?).

Khm. It is a reasonable excuse to fly Caracals when there are not enough Bellicoses, but I'm sorry to ask this how you (?) planned Bellicoses heavy fleet and did not stock enough of them? If you expected 15 Bellis, and had only 6 in fleet... Why did not you import them? I do know E-Uni has a free delivery service. Use it to full advantage.

Next. Both Bellicoses and Caracals project further than 50km. Why fitting Points on Caracals? If you plan to fight in point range... fly other ships (Stabbers just a first that comes to my mind). But better - use Caracals the right way. BLAP is a good one. This causes other issues, but that's another topic to discuss.

Now, DPS. For simplicity of the further analysis, let's assume pilots fly with all skills Level 5.
Let's compare for example these 2 fits:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/75446399/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/75446428/

First concern: Bellicoses HM range (with Inferno Heavy Missiles) is 70km. Caracals - 63.3km.
Without considering the reload time Bellicose has 239 DPS, 87.7m explosion radius and 142m/s explosion speed.
Caracal ... 298 DPS, 30m explosion radius, and 255 m/s explosion speed. And in a fight against Feroxes sitting on the gate at 0, waiting for you 3 minutes you can load furies (option for T2 only though), but for simplicity, let's stick to navy ammunition.

Here already Caracals beat Feroxes. You will say "But, reload time". Yes, you don't fight while Caracals reload. You warp off.
That's exactly what you had to do once you killed the first Basi. You lost 6 T1 ships, you killed 1 T2 ship. You most likely hit the reload time.
You as FC were already killed so no blame, but... if you were alive, you would realize that YOU hit the reload time and it is time to bounce.

Be out of the bubbles, pre-align fleet to "Planet 1", warp out. Don't stay aligned out for too long as Feroxes will have a very good application during this time.

Unfortunately, this isn't a realistic goal on most uni fleets. The pilots with enough experience to be effective anchors tend to be flying the snowflake support ships.

I hear you. Though, I do believe it is very realistic with some practice. Call a training on Sisi, practice a brawl of 10 vs 10, no logies, Caracals vs ... Ruptures or Thoraxes. And repeat 5-10 times.
I promise you LOTS of fun.
Moreover, I'd be happy to join and practice with you guys. Email me in game on via the forum, plan for 02:00 - 04:00 EVE on the weekday, or 16:00 - 04:00 on the weekend and I will come myself and try to bring few more experienced FCs with me

Wouldn't orbiting at 5-10km have far more transversal than trying to orbit at 20-30km?

TBH I don't remember what exactly was in my head when I wrote that. Yes, orbiting at 5-10 sounds more logical.
... but instinctively it sounds wrong orbiting at 10 in Caracals.
As a good reason, I can give you now: you better to be out of bubbles to disengage when you need, for instance to reload.

Oh, and re: jumping into them. The original goal was to have them jump into us. They brought in their bait/scout drake to do just that and noped out.
We waited 3-4 min, and our scouts with them reported that they said in local that we had to jump into them. Given the choice between not fighting them and jumping into them, I was willing to jump into them.

That's fair. But then... you had a Bifrost: he should have the goal to split opponents fleet, just make sure he does not split your fleet.
By looking now that he survived for SO long and did not bush I blame Space (hi there!) for not offering this in comms. No blame really, he is just my former friend and I'm teasing him
Feroxes would still apply ok from a long range, but there default range is 93.8km (with all L5 skills) and they would have to realize what happened, reload ammo (only those who were bushed) and that would give you 20-30 seconds of reduced DPS.

Another thing which I would do: I'd say, guys, this fight is not even, we are gonna whelp. Is everybody ready for this? HYPE in local before we decloak.

[Archemide]

Don't get me wrong, I'm open to feedback. And some of you points were very accurate, like holding cloak as opposed to waiting to jump.

First concern: Bellicoses HM range (with Inferno Heavy Missiles) is 70km. Caracals - 63.3km.
Without considering the reload time Bellicose has 239 DPS, 87.7m explosion radius and 142m/s explosion speed.
Caracal ... 298 DPS, 30m explosion radius, and 255 m/s explosion speed. And in a fight against Feroxes sitting on the gate at 0, waiting for you 3 minutes you can load furies (option for T2 only though), but for simplicity, let's stick to navy ammunition.

ZKillboard links show you quite a bit, but they don't typically include drones, and Bellicoses have 4x the drone bay of Caracals.
T2 Fits for reference

Spoiler

[Bellicose, Heavy Belly T2]

Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Target Painter II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Large Shield Extender II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Heavy Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Processor Overclocking Unit I


Hammerhead II x3
Hobgoblin II x2


Inferno Fury Heavy Missile x500
Mjolnir Fury Heavy Missile x500
Nova Fury Heavy Missile x500
Scourge Fury Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Nova Heavy Missile x500
Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile x500
Missile Range Script x1
Nanite Repair Paste x100

Spoiler

[Caracal, Rapid Carry T2]

Damage Control II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
50MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Warp Disruptor II

Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I


Hornet EC-300 x2


Inferno Fury Light Missile x500
Mjolnir Fury Light Missile x500
Nova Fury Light Missile x500
Scourge Fury Light Missile x500
Navy Cap Booster 400 x10
Caldari Navy Inferno Light Missile x500
Caldari Navy Mjolnir Light Missile x500
Caldari Navy Nova Light Missile x500
Caldari Navy Scourge Light Missile x500
Nanite Repair Paste x100

415 to 298. 40% more damage on the Bellicose, and that's before you even hit reload.

First concern: Bellicoses HM range (with Inferno Heavy Missiles) is 70km. Caracals - 63.3km.

I'm not sure what your concern here is. The ranges are practically identical.

Something to note though: This was not BLAP Caracals.

I'm curious why?

Because that's not the doctrine I wanted to use?

BLAP Caracals have several weaknesses. The main ones being reliance on snowflake tackle and terrible sustained dps.
"But it's not about sustained dps, it's about the warpoff"
And every time you warp off, you lose people for free. Some people will be tackled and die for it. It also means that, as soon as you have an advantage, the fight is over. The enemy can very easily disengage and go home, or wait for reships. You don't get to push your advantage.

BLAP Caracals have their strengths, they're great at running at picking off enemy tackle, or countering frig/dessie gangs. But they are far from the be-all end-all doctrine.

If you expected 15 Bellis, and had only 6 in fleet... Why did not you import them? I do know E-Uni has a free delivery service. Use it to full advantage.

We tend to have about 15 people on Thursday Things. I'm happy to have more, but I'm not going to tie up a bil isk for the odd week that we have 30 people show up.

[Budda Sereda]

415 to 298. 40% more damage on the Bellicose, and that's before you even hit reload.

You've compared fury loaded Bellicose vs navy loaded Caracal. If you use Fury for Caracal you will get 415 vs 364. And to be completely fair, 2 Hobgoblins vs 2 EC drones give you 40 more DPS and that would be 415 vs 403.

First concern: Bellicoses HM range (with Inferno Heavy Missiles) is 70km. Caracals - 63.3km.
I'm not sure what your concern here is. The ranges are practically identical.

You right, it was some thoughts which I started, identified no concerns, but forgot to remove. Scratch that.

Because that's not the doctrine I wanted to use?

This is very fair: we don't always fly what's the best, but what we want (practice, fun, troll, etc.) . I respect that.

BLAP Caracals have several weaknesses. The main ones being reliance on snowflake tackle and terrible sustained dps.
"But it's not about sustained dps, it's about the warpoff"
And every time you warp off, you lose people for free. Some people will be tackled and die for it.

How so? Unless you fight Assault Frigates, you clean tackles first and fast, after that you can warp off. Preferably to the ping on a gate.
If you do fight Assault Frigates: see their number and consider if you should engage at all.

It also means that, as soon as you have an advantage, the fight is over. The enemy can very easily disengage and go home, or wait for reships. You don't get to push your advantage.

From one side you are correct. From another ... pretty much you always have a ceptor pilot. Good ceptor pilot will stay on grid alive, and land a point on fleet when they start disengage (so +1 kill). I do admit it is hard, and I know barely 3-4 pilots who can do that, but all were at E-Uni at some point. And each time I have an opportunity, I try.
Also, going into null with a 30 men fleet you should have a dictor... and then they won't disengage that easily anymore. You can catch them on the next gate.
Also, ideally you should also have a combat probber, so you have an option to continue the fight even if they warp to a safe..
Admittedly, not a guaranteed win, yet.

And even if you decide to stay in point range ... why to not fit Belliocoses with HAM? This will give you even more DPS. And you can use MGC either for extra range or replace it for more buffer.

BLAP Caracals have their strengths, they're great at running at picking off enemy tackle, or countering frig/dessie gangs. But they are far from the be-all end-all doctrine.

My point is you should try to stick to a single doctrine and capitalize on your strength, rather than have a mix of everything and be 'average' or 'below average' in everything.

If you expected 15 Bellis, and had only 6 in the fleet... Why did not you import them? I do know E-Uni has a free delivery service. Use it to full advantage.

We tend to have about 15 people on Thursday Things. I'm happy to have more, but I'm not going to tie up a bil isk for the odd week that we have 30 people show up.

If ISK is a concern... then appreciate that. Otherwise... I'd say you have to.
So you just got more people than expected? Still, you had 6 Bellis, not 12.
And if you consider Heavy Missiles: they are more alpha damage weapon. To capitalize on Alpha you need like 20 people. So unless you aim for alpha, I'd still use RLML Bellicoses and replace a TP with something extra shield.

[Archemide]

You've compared fury loaded Bellicose vs navy loaded Caracal. If you use Fury for Caracal you will get 415 vs 364. And to be completely fair, 2 Hobgoblins vs 2 EC drones give you 40 more DPS and that would be 415 vs 403.

My bad, I swear I triple checked it. Still higher uptime dps, and way higher sustained dps.

Because that's not the doctrine I wanted to use?

This is very fair: we don't always fly what's the best, but what we want (practice, fun, troll, etc.) . I respect that.

Just because I'm not using BLAP Caracals doesn't mean I'm trolling. They are far from the perfect doctrine for all times.

How so? Unless you fight Assault Frigates, you clean tackles first and fast, after that you can warp off. Preferably to the ping on a gate.
If you do fight Assault Frigates: see their number and consider if you should engage at all.

Assault frigs are hardly the only doctrine to carry multiple forms of tackle.

From one side you are correct. From another ... pretty much you always have a ceptor pilot. Good ceptor pilot will stay on grid alive, and land a point on fleet when they start disengage (so +1 kill). I do admit it is hard, and I know barely 3-4 pilots who can do that, but all were at E-Uni at some point. And each time I have an opportunity, I try.
Also, going into null with a 30 men fleet you should have a dictor... and then they won't disengage that easily anymore. You can catch them on the next gate.
Also, ideally you should also have a combat probber, so you have an option to continue the fight even if they warp to a safe..
Admittedly, not a guaranteed win, yet.

I'll answer this with your own words:

you clean tackles first and fast,

Uni is hardly going to be the only fleet ever to follow that advice. Case in point, my AAR from this week.

And even if you decide to stay in point range ... why to not fit Belliocoses with HAM? This will give you even more DPS. And you can use MGC either for extra range or replace it for more buffer.

The idea was to still be able to use defensive bubbles/kiting range when necessary, but increase the on-grid power. MGC is already being used to increase application, as both medium missiles don't have great base application.

My point is you should try to stick to a single doctrine and capitalize on your strength, rather than have a mix of everything and be 'average' or 'below average' in everything.

So Fweddit flies the same doctrine every fleet? That's got to get boring for your guys, and predictable for your enemies.

So you just got more people than expected? Still, you had 6 Bellis, not 12.

6 Bellis/3 Caracals/3 Logi/3 Snowflakes = 15 people. And there were more than 6 Bellis when I had checked earlier, but people buy ships throughout the week, and Uni doesn't do 1 hour jump freighters.

And if you consider Heavy Missiles: they are more alpha damage weapon. To capitalize on Alpha you need like 20 people. So unless you aim for alpha, I'd still use RLML Bellicoses and replace a TP with something extra shield.

Using a Bellicose without a TP is like using a Vexor without drones. At that point, it's a worse Caracal.
And this doctrine is still not supposed to be BLAP Caracals. I don't want RLML DD, as I've said. I'm looking for a doctrine with better sustained dps, which is why I'm trying this.

[Budda Sereda]

So Fweddit flies the same doctrine every fleet? That's got to get boring for your guys, and predictable for your enemies.

No, you are right: fly what you like. After discussion I see your plan. Though, when we saw the fleet it looked... unclear.

Using a Bellicose without a TP is like using a Vexor without drones.

True.

Anyway, Good Luck, see you on grid!