[WAR] Slow and Furious

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Ersin Oghuz

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Post 2018.08.31 22:32

[WAR] Slow and Furious

Recently Stockholm Syndrome. declared war and began engaging to our members right away. An Orca was lost today in Jufvitte and we tried to chase the 3 wartargets until they decided to retreat to their home system from Vay.

The morale was not that high after that Orca loss and on top of that they began to reinforce the EVE University POCOs in Metropolis region. While De W was hosting the Friday Night Fight Club, I decided to ping HSC for a fleet and go and engage the wartargets if we can.

Prior to any of these, earlier today Jacob Velora scanned down several connections in order to find a suitable route to their staging system so we can engage them there if we want to. And thanks to his efforts, we now can move fast and engage their fleet if they keep bashing the POCOs. Gyrgon and Crowthrm Kaundur went ahead and began scouting and they did good job on conveying intel to the fleet. We knew their fleet composition for the bashing and we monitor their fleet for a while but sadly we could not engage since it took long to form up and move between systems due to several reasons.

After 40 minutes, we reached to the neighbouring system of Aderkan where they like to mine ice and do stuff. Sadly their bashing fleet was docked up and our scouts only reported a single Retriever in Aderkan. We first jumped in and warped to the ice belt he was sitting at zero. He might be AFK at the time since it took some time to take 60 AU warp from gate to the ice field but he did not react until we landed on, tackled him and began applying damage.

A moment later other wartargets began to log in (at the time we engaged Retriever there was only 3) and first Vindicator was reported as warping to us. Then the whole IVY fleet involved while 3 Nestors reported as on their way to ice belt. Vindicator was already at deep armor when the Nestors began to land and began repping Vindicator. Seconds later Raven, Armageddon and Dominix landed on grid as well. At that point I diverted our firepower to Raven while focused our ECMs and Vexor Sensor Dampeneres on the Nestors. We got Raven deep armor until he decided to warp off. There I should have be more clear about spreading points. Well other ships should be armor so I primaried 1 Nestor while other EWAR (Jams and Scan Resolution Damp Scripted Sensor Dampeners) on the other Nestors. We grinded the Nestors one by one by singling out 1 Nestor by jamming others and killing them slowly. I said we need to spread points at this stage and while people were going to tackle Armageddon and Dominix they warped off from the grid leaving the 2 Nestors and 1 Vindicator on grid with us. People spread points and we caught all other ships on grid. When Nestors were destroyed we easily wrecked the remaining Vindcator. Then we looted the field and retrated to the neighbouring system to dock up for a bit. After 5 minutes we undocked and then head back to Amygnon.

Roam members (20)
SPOILER WARNING!
Adree Jericho - Augoror
Archemide - Ashimmu
Ares Dodekatheon - Vexor
Bleak Skyline- Augoror
Christoph Patrouette - Blackbird
De W Javqe - Vexor
Devola Gestalt - Griffin
Ersin Oghuz - Vexor
Flack Keikira - Augoror
Gyrgon - Vexor
Jacob Velora - Vexor
Kris Hawk - Vexor
Ludgwyn Likiie - Vexor
Magnar Eriksson - Vexor
Nathan Tamroc - Augoror
Nelliver Cadigal- Augoror
Phileas Levesque - Vexor
Stogal Severasse - Vexor
Tal Tracyn - Falcon
lobevaser - Augoror


Kills and Losses

(21:42:38) Aderkan
Retriever +32.63m
Griffin -0.77m
Nestor +1295.59m
Nestor +1297.35m
Capsule +0.01m
Capsule +0.01m
Nestor +1292.84m
Vindicator +3501.75m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 7,420,183,598.22
ISK Lost: 765,174.88
ISK Delta: 7,419,418,423.34
Efficiency: 99.99%

Battle Report

Overall evaluation
    (Positive stuff)
    + Very good turn out to the ping within 30 minutes.
    + We have impressive count on logistics. We had 7 logistics at the beginning and 1 more eager logistics. Then I said I want 6 Logistics and rest in DPS and support.
    + Falcon, Blackbird and Griffin. Amazing jamming on Nestors
    + Sensor Dampening from Vexors to Nestors hindered their capability to lock other ships in time before another jam lands on them.
    + Damage dealers had a good job on keeping fire on primary targets. There were some isolated splitting damage incident at the beginning but we sort that out.
    + Good newbro participation
    + Very good prior scanning & scouting and live intel from all scouts
    (Negative stuff)
    - We experienced a major slowdown while one member had a very hard time to reship, to understand what we want and to follow commands and/or fleet until the point I decided to leave him behind and told him to go back to Amygnon. But up to that point we lost so much time, we lost considerable amount of our DPS to RL.
    - Comms discipline was very problematic at the beginning but it was sorted after some point.
    - We lost a Griffin :cry:
"In Blasters I Trust"


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Adree Jericho

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Post 2018.09.01 00:37

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

My favorite part was the other guy mining in the ice belt alongside the WT. As it turns out, his corp is in the 24-hour spool-up period of a war with the exact same corp. So imagine his surprise when our fleet rolls up and starts wrecking his wartargets-to-be:

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Jacob Velora

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Post 2018.09.01 01:17

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Was an excellent fleet in the end Ersin. I'm glad we got some use from those fortunately placed wormholes.
I agree with your points for learning. It did take a while to get going and that's something to focus for next time as we lost some people at the start before they saw any action. We can also spread points a bit better next time to kill more targets.

It is sometimes necessary to move forward with the fleet even if someone is lagging behind and not understanding what is going on. We had that situation tonight but it's right for the fleet to carry on with the objective. People who are not keeping up should be asked to drop fleet and arrange to attend NoP for example so they can learn fleet comms and discipline. So you did the right thing there Ersin.

I also agreed with your decision to engage their main fleet in the ice belt. We already had some vexors and logi set up there so it would have disrupted us to move at that point.

Also, great scouting from Gyrgon, logi performed very well (I was taking heavy DPS from the Vindi at the start and they kept me alive) and E-war execution by Tal and team also excellent.

Great result!
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Ludgwyn Likiie

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Post 2018.09.01 02:44

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Thanks guys for taking the time with us new to fleets. I am sad I didn't get to the actual battle. Sounds like it was an awesome time! This was my first attempt to PVP (but I do watch fleets on Twitch sometimes, which really helped). I want to commend everyone (and especially the commanders) for their patience with everyone and always jumping to explain things first then just kicking people at the first sign of inexperience. I know that has to be hard on the vets who want to just get to the content. Even though I didn't see any action, I had a great time and can't wait for the next one. Also a big thanks for not being frustrated when RL stuff pops up and someone has to drop out.

Thanks to everyone!
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Adrien Claremont

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Post 2018.09.01 06:17

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

This is why we keep BLAP Vexors. Great job.
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Tal Tracyn

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Post 2018.09.01 08:04

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

While we had a great fight and a great outcome i am going to post here what i did so others may learn from my mistakes and so i may improve my performance.

Pro's
i had some really lucky jams on the raven which was perma jammed from the start.
Bad rolls on the vindi but some jams landed
Switched to nestors when they landed and had some really good rolls.
2 green 2 blue 1 red ECM mods while not the best combo I got quite lucky in this engagment.
There logi nestors didn't have SEBO's with eccm scripts :)
Infact nothing they had on grid had a SEBO.

Cons
I didn't turn on my tactical overlay which i normaly do when entering a fight prefering to check ranges on my overview.
While this was a quickly arrange fight there were no celestials to align to in my path across the grid that i was taking and i had no BM's.
I had ..for some reason drifted closer to the fight that i was comfortable with and into a canes drone range.
I had to leave grid and picked the azbel to warp to.
warped to azbel found 1 armageddon and the hurricane there.
couldn't dock and within 10km of both of them and no tether because of weapon timer
webbed and drones ,no scram.
Azbel tether suddenly came on and locks dropped..timer ran out just in time.
I could of communicated better with chris in the blackbird and the griffin

Nice job tho
It was a good result in the end :)
And i'd really like to know how busy logi was :)
Good job Ersin and good job Jacob for the WH chain.


"Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'
Jam those ones first, and kill them last."
-Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen
Pithum Nullifier Training Manual
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Alexander Oromov

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Post 2018.09.01 08:59

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Adree actually undocked and I wasn't there to witness the historical moment? :lol:
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Devola Gestalt

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Post 2018.09.01 10:22

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

    (Negative stuff)
    ...
    - We lost a Griffin :cry:


Newbro Griffin pilot here. Getting blown up was actually a good thing: on this day justice was delivered to a noob Griffin who warped at 0m in a PVP fight. Mosquito slammed into a truck's windshield, got the wiper blade :)

I wanted to give a few words about the member we sadly had to let behind (I guess a newbro). Having done my first fleet last week (and also having slowed it down quite a bit because I got lost), IMO just staying with the fleet is challenging if you never had a "Fleet 101 practical exercise" beforehand. In all my Uni fleet (this one included), FC and other members were/are doing an excellent job to explain some basics, answer questions, or link quick GIF tutorials. That's enough for someone with 80% of the minimum knowledge (gui, navigation, fleet orders) to catch up on the fly; it is certainly not enough for a newbro straight out of the character creation menu.

Anyway, good fleet. 10/10 would blow up again :)
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Magnar Eriksson

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Post 2018.09.01 11:22

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Great fleet, we did a lot right and as jacob said leaving behind members who are slowing down the fleet is necessary.

The positives seem to have covered already so Ill just add to the negatives from my perspective:

Anchor Issues

We should have been told who would be anchor and perhaps backup anchor ahead of time so that when the call came to anchor up we would expect it and know who to go to. I did ask twice whilst enroute to the system who the anchor would be, but got no reply. Im not sure if this is normal practice to pre assign these roles, though it was done during the NSC structure defense fleet recently (if memory serves).

Anchor moved out of scram range of target so we lost vindi scram for a few seconds. I brought this up in comms and anchor quickly moved back within scram range.

Following the anchor near the start i got caught on a neutral orca. Not sure if i was too far from anchor or if anchor moved too close to orca, so could be my bad and i should pay more attention in future.

Scram Management

Ersin touched on this above but until some of the scrammers initiated calling out their scram targets and finding they were being scrammed by multiple others, there was little attempt to scram any ship other than primary.

After it became clear that scrams weren't being distributed we still didnt respond fast or efficiently enough to spread them properly. With only 4 enemy ships left on grid and enough scrammers for them all, it was only when i asked "who is scramming armagedon?" that it became clear that no one was and i asked if i should go do it. He got away. I understand that the FC has a lot going on, so maybe one of the 2/3/4 IC's could have been assigned to scram management?
[url=http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=190323]
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Gyrgon

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Post 2018.09.01 12:11

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Devola Gestalt wrote:
    (Negative stuff)
    ...
    - We lost a Griffin :cry:


Newbro Griffin pilot here. Getting blown up was actually a good thing: on this day justice was delivered to a noob Griffin who warped at 0m in a PVP fight. Mosquito slammed into a truck's windshield, got the wiper blade :)

[...]

Anyway, good fleet. 10/10 would blow up again :)


I am glad you are taking the loss not just in stride but with good humor and are even taking the opportunity to learn something from the loss :P and don't mind Ersin, that's not a serious negative. As you might have noticed on the way back, we were all in such good spirits that we had to reach quite a bit to find something that could have gone better, and as the only loss that we suffered and thus could have prevented, we landed on the griffin. But it is probably more fair to view griffins as ammunition then actual ships :D



All jokes aside, I am glad we took the opportunity and went ahead with the fleet even though we missed the original opportunity to engage the WTs while still shooting structures due to the delay in form-up. This was an unfortunate conflux of circumstances. While most NoP fleets and other roams are set up to deal with delays or at least can stomach them well enough, the combination of having to go through multiple wormhole systems, which probably was a first for many non-explorers, and having a rapidly shrinking window of opportunity to catch our targets by surprise forced Ersin's hand. The decision to send one unfortunate newbro back to HSC in order to get any content for the rest of the fleet, or scrap the whole operation instead was not an easy one, but it had to be made. We'll make sure he is better prepared for the next one :thumbleft:


I have three points to contribute to the maneuver critique:

  • First, as Magnar already mentioned, delegating some tasks to to other experienced pilots ahead of time. While the FC will often be the anchor in small fleets like this, we had enough experienced ppl in fleet that we designated up to a 4IC, so assigning someone to make sure we stay in range of our tackle mods in a brawl situation is something to keep in mind for next time.
  • Second, the same as above can be said for someone calling tackle targets. This might not be a priority when we don't know what kind of targets we'll face, but Magnar is right that we might have gotten even more kills if we had spread tackle a bit better. This is not just on the FC though, since
    even the seasoned pilots (myself included) didn't start calling out tackle early enough. In this case, just better and earlier communications from everyone should have been enough, even without someone to organize who to spread tackle to.
  • Third, while on the topic of communications: I had cloaky eyes on the WT staging structure and did call out what ships were undocking / about to warp to us, but I neglected to communicate which structure that was (and therefor wasn't safe to warp to). This could have prevented Tal from warping to the wrong structure and into the WTs arms, even though he got lucky and did not die :P

So in conclusion, it's a delicate balance for the FC what to handle yourself and what to hand off to others. It also needs practice to judge correctly what and when to communicate with your fleet vs the need to not interrupt the FC. Both need practice and experience to improve, so let's do more fleets and practice ;)
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Gyrgon

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Post 2018.09.01 12:16

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

One additional observation (that I didn't think to make during the fleet either):

Scram vs. point against BS. While I called out point on some ships (since we had distributed fitting some of each) and iirc even had the raven pointed when he got out, I did not account for the fact that many PvP fit battleships (and some BC) fit MJD and thus can jump out of point range if they aren't scrammed. Something to keep in mind for next time as well.
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Gyrgon

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Post 2018.09.01 12:40

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

I should wait with posting until I am fully awake, so I only have to make one next time 8)

Something that has been mentioned on slack already but bears repeating here: calling for scan res damps in combination with the ECM support was a great idea, since range damps wouldn't have done much at the engagement range we were at, but the inability to lock your buddies again after getting jammed and before getting jammed again, even if the ECM miss a cycle, is awesome. totally underutilized imo. :thumbleft: :thumbleft:

I just wish CCP would go the last step of pitting sensor booster against damps and let us script the remote sensor dampener with anti-ECCM script to lower a target's sensor strength and make jams easier :twisted:
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Adree Jericho

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Post 2018.09.01 14:05

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Tal Tracyn wrote:And i'd really like to know how busy logi was :)


We were pretty busy. The DPS wasn't completely overwhelming, we had enough logi to counter it. But the DPS did spread out quite a bit at times, forcing us to watch out for many of you at a time. This is a part of the reason the DPS wasn't overwhelming, but it did have the effect of making us wonder if someone was slipping through the cracks if he didn't broadcast.

On top of that, I had to manage still more targets on top of that to make sure I threw my kill-mail whoring T1 drones onto primaries. 8)
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Tal Tracyn

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Post 2018.09.01 14:13

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

Adree Jericho wrote:
Tal Tracyn wrote:And i'd really like to know how busy logi was :)


We were pretty busy. The DPS wasn't completely overwhelming, we had enough logi to counter it. But the DPS did spread out quite a bit at times, forcing us to watch out for many of you at a time. This is a part of the reason the DPS wasn't overwhelming, but it did have the effect of making us wonder if someone was slipping through the cracks if he didn't broadcast.

On top of that, I had to manage still more targets on top of that to make sure I threw my kill-mail whoring T1 drones onto primaries. 8)


That's good,that means they had no FC and no primary target.
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Nathan Tamroc

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Post 2018.09.01 15:08

Re: [WAR] Slow and Furious

I am really glad I stayed until the end and did not leave during the painfully slow start. Maybe delegating the checking of the fits and helping out the newbros to someone else right from the start would help in the future.

From logi standpoint I would say that we were quite lucky. The logi that came with the main fleet landed at zero on the vindi, geddon and the rest and stayed there far too long if i remember correctly. This could have gone very awry if the jams hadn't landed as favorably as they did. But with our lucky jams and their split dps we had a really easy time keeping our fleet alive.
On the bright side the reconfiguration of the cap chain went quite smoothly after the main fleet landed.

Really great preparation of the op.
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