[AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

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Ged Sinak

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Post 2018.06.22 01:25

[AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

Roam members (23)

SPOILER WARNING!
Analiese Aubernet - Malediction
Archemide - Inquisitor
Beavis Alland - Punisher
Calder Ormand - Atron
Coaxster - Punisher
Durnik Risalo - Punisher
Etienne Oort - Punisher
Ged Sinak - Punisher
General Killah - Punisher
Harai Rex - Punisher
Jacob Velora - Inquisitor
Kento Auffrie - Punisher
Kodyak Mack - Punisher
Mols Halleck - Navitas
Neemo Beer - Punisher
Philbro Kishunuba - Punisher
Reed Gryphon
Rohan Amadeus - Punisher
Satoshi Tomeii - Punisher, Amarr Shuttle
Space Warfare Development - Nemesis
Vladimir Antonovich - Punisher
Zako Maken - Punisher
lobevaser - Punisher


(01:40:39) Agoze
Tornado +96.62m

(01:40:39) Vey
Atron -18.72m

(01:51:27) Alsavoinon
Algos +2.57m

(01:56:45) Eha
Punisher -10.06m

(02:02:56) Geztic
Amarr Shuttle -0.02m

(02:12:28) Akidagi
Tormentor +13.91m

(02:24:28) Hikkoken
Vengeance +43.95m

(02:33:23) Reitsato
Merlin +24.84m

(02:37:12) Kedama
Punisher -11.38m
Praxis +286.87m
Inquisitor -5.88m
Procurer +36.66m
Republic Fleet Firetail +37.88m
Capsule - Genolution 'Auroral' 197-variant +0.01m

(02:56:51) Tama
Punisher -8.69m
Capsule -0.01m
Punisher +10.33m

(03:02:55) Sujarento
Tristan +0.48m

(03:06:15) Nagamanen
Coercer +23.64m
Capsule +21.23m

(03:12:02) Deven
Algos +8.62m

(03:18:17) Heydieles
Breacher +9.1m

(03:30:09) Ouelletta
Jackdaw +82.79m
Punisher -4.6m
Ishkur +49.94m
Enyo +47.36m
Capsule +477.94m
Capsule +0.01m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 1,274,756,213.18
ISK Lost: 59,363,404.61
ISK Delta: 1,215,392,808.57
Efficiency: 95.55%

Overall evaluation
    (Positive stuff)
    1 - I successfully made it through my first fleet without welping all of us!
    2 - This fleet provided me with a good introduction to my strong points (not many) and my weak points.
    3 - I was able to provide a decent learning environment for the newbros.
    (Negative stuff)
    1 - I am quite slow at making decisions and processing the relevant information from the irrelevant information.
    2 - I was slow to react when my fleet members were in danger of being killed; especially scouts.
    3 - I don't have a good grasp of the Black Rise region and where the hot spots are.
    4 - I don't have a good grasp of ship types and which one poses the greatest threat. In particular, I have not memorized the ships that provide logistical support.
    5 - I am bad at keeping control of comms. At times, people were saying "warp here warp here" without consulting me at first. This was caused by me not being assertive enough with my control of the fleet.
    6 - I am bad at avoiding comms silence.
    7 - I often tell the fleet to hold fire and might have killed a scout or a fleet member in the process.

Well, that was quite a first experience. In the beginning, I waited a few minutes (till 1:10) to start organizing the fleet. At 1:10, I started organizing the fleet and called for a few people who had fit scams on their ships to fit webs. Afterward, I did the newbro speech. During the newbro speech, I ran into problems with alt-tabbing onto my Google Docs sheet. Since my push to talk key is the tilda, when I was trying to talk and copy past something at the same time I ended up deleting the link and replacing it with tildas. My ctrl-z button may be broken now. After the newbro speech when I was putting together the MOTD I had trouble dragging the names from the fleet window into the edit MOTD box. In the future, I need to work on streamlining this process since the fleet started to get antsy when I wasn't talking. For the newbro speech, I need to work on memorizing my speech so that I don't pause during the process.

Starting off, I called for the fleet to undock. I sent one scout to check Dastryns and the other the plus one for me. As the first few systems were deserted, we moved onto Agoze where we got our first kill. Initially, I thought that the Tornado was just going to kite our brawling Punishers from the edge of space. One of my scouts convinced me to take it; this resulted in the first kill of my career as an FC. Afterward, we continued on our planned route to Eha. Unfortunately, one of our scouts lost their Atron while away from the fleet as I was to slow to react to the developing situation. I believe that the ability to move the fleet faster to come to the aid of scouts will come with practice.

Moving on, one of our scouts found an Algos that we quickly ganked and ran; no need to stay around. The same event occurred in Akidagi. Surprisingly, we were unable to find any targets to engage except the Tormenter in Akidagi. In Hikkoken we were able to find a Vengence that we, again, quickly ganked and ran.

When the fleet got into Kedama, I decided to gate-camp the Tama gate. During our time, we lost a few ships and killed a few. In highlight, we almost killed a Stratios that came through the gate. We were, unfortunately, unable to get enough DPS and webs on it before it jumped back. When I decided to chase a ship into Tama, I killed one of our Punishers on accident.

On our way back, we came across an Enyo and an Iskhur fighting a Jackdaw outside of a plex. As I was not with the fleet at the moment, someone had to take control of the situation while I wasn't there. It was my fault I wasn't there since I was slow on processing the information. I believe that this was one of my major mistakes since as FC I should always have control of the situation. In the future, I plan on improving this by practicing my situational awareness and observing how more experienced FC's react in this situation. In highlight, we were able to pop a shiny pod on our last fight.

Analysis of my mistakes:
1 - "I am quite slow at making decisions and processing the relevant information from the irrelevant information."
I plan on improving on this my not being scared to take out fleets and make mistakes. The best way to learn how to analyze information in a timely manner is to practice in the live situation. Even if I make mistakes doing it, I will be able to learn from my mistakes.

2 - "I was slow to react when my fleet members were in danger of being killed; especially scouts."
This goes along with my previous point. In the future, I wish to improve on this by paying closer attention to my scouts and their position in relation to the fleet. If I pay closer attention, I won't have to ask the scouts which system they are in or what they are being attacked my multiple times. Also, paying close attention to comms will help me analyze the information scouts are giving be better.

3 - "I don't have a good grasp of the Black Rise region and where the hot spots are."
When we finished our initial route to Eha, I had to ask my fleet members where to go next. Even though I was using Doltan to orient myself, I was unable to grasp fast enough where to go for the most content. I plan on improving on this by doing more solo and small gang PVP out in the Black Rise/Placid area. Doing this will help build the mental image of my surroundings and my help build situational awareness. Also, this may help in me being able to send scouts to systems off of our path to find potential targets.

4 - "I don't have a good grasp of ship types and which one poses the greatest threat. In particular, I have not memorized the ships that provide logistical support."
Since I have only been actively playing Eve for the past month and a half, I am still new to the ship types. During my free time, I study various topics about Eve so that one day I may be able to react to situations faster and call primaries in a fleet faster. In particular, I need to memorize the logi ships as they indirectly pose the greatest threat to my fleet.

5 - "I am bad at keeping control of comms. At times, people were saying "warp here warp here" without consulting me at first. This was caused by me not being assertive enough with my control of the fleet."
Due to my quiet nature, I am not assertive enough and I am not able to keep combat comms in my fleet. I plan on improving this by attempting to speak up more and voice my opinion in a situation. Not hide in the corner and let others do it for me.

6 - "I am bad at avoiding comms silence."
After my fleet was over, I was notified that there were moments during my fleet that my tendency not to speak and be quiet is not good for an FC. In particular, this is the one situation that I don't know the solution to. I don't know what I could be talking about or saying during the moments that I am quiet. Any tips guys?

7 - "I often tell the fleet to hold fire and might have killed a scout or a fleet member in the process."
After the fleet, I was told that it is a bad idea to hold fire. Due to my bad situational awareness when I am being provided a substantial amount of information I don't understand and evaluate the state of the scouts and fleet members fast enough. When I call to hold fire is it a split second decision that for some reason I don't put a good amount of thought into it. In the future, this will improve with flying more fleets and observing more experienced FC's when I am in fleets.

I would like to give a special thanks to the members of Hidden Flame for making my first fleet a fun, easy environment. Also, I would like to give thanks to the members of the uni who bore with me as I learned from my mistakes during this fleet.

And as always, fly dangerously.
Retired Personnel Officer| Retired NSC Combat Officer | Retired Teacher | Retired FCC Staff

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Slowly falling asleep to the ticking of the monstrance clock.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.06.22 03:55

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

One of my scouts convinced me to take it; this resulted in the first kill of my career as an FC.

I feel it is a good move to name the scout who did something good, unless you really forgot that. But looking on the killmail I only see Analiese as a probable scout.

Unfortunately, one of our scouts lost their Atron while away from the fleet as I was to slow to react to the developing situation. I believe that the ability to move the fleet faster to come to the aid of scouts will come with practice.

It is hard to comment on that particular engagement, but Atron was killed by two blaster-fit Enyos. Typically, scenario should be following:
1. scout finds content and reports
2. FC/scout (together?) assess if the scout can tackle and survive until fleet arrives; if no, FC assigns vanguard pilots to help with a tackle
3. FC gets fleet in position and confirms scout/vanguard can go for tackle
4. As soon as FC hears "POINT" he calls jump/warp, etc.
If scout found reports "FC, I've tackled xyz" you response can be as simple as "you should not have tackled without command".
Clearly, you should not let him die just because he did not communicate his actions in advance, but you should not feel guilty about loss in this case. Instead, you should call scout to ask if he can go for tackle.

5 - "I am bad at keeping control of comms. At times, people were saying "warp here warp here" without consulting me at first. This was caused by me not being assertive enough with my control of the fleet."
Due to my quiet nature, I am not assertive enough and I am not able to keep combat comms in my fleet. I plan on improving this by attempting to speak up more and voice my opinion in a situation. Not hide in the corner and let others do it for me.

That's valid.
Yet, especially as you are an emerging FC you do need to be able to recognize key players by voice and if commands come from people whom you trust then most likely they had good reasons to step over and call for actions.
This can be dangerous though: depending on whom you fly with people could just ignore any voice other than yours and they will do the right thing! Nomatter who calls for action, the fleet should ONLY listen to FC.
And in this case, the best you can do (and I argue should do):
1) repeat the same command (assuming you agree) so fleet understands they should follow;
2) let them control it for few moments, for instance explicitly tell something like: fleet, XYZ will FC this fight, keep follow his commands.

6 - "I am bad at avoiding comms silence."
After my fleet was over, I was notified that there were moments during my fleet that my tendency not to speak and be quiet is not good for an FC. In particular, this is the one situation that I don't know the solution to. I don't know what I could be talking about or saying during the moments that I am quiet. Any tips guys?

Many things depend on the scout: good scout (assuming supported by FC) should keep streaming information to FC/fleet, something like:
- Budda jumped into Akidagi, 20 people in local, 2 flashies, nothing on dscan from the gate, all plexes are in range with exception of one, will warp to it at 50km to check the plex.
And you can absolutely ask your +1 scout before the fleet to do you a favour and report this information jumping to a new system.
This will keep fleet more or less engaged.
Another thing I saw other FCs do is they set destination and say: fleet, we do our best speed unless scout reports something and after that they trigger chat and either talk on different things or ask people about anything: EVE politics, some good fits, etc. Just be assertive on getting people back to order ("CHECK-CHECK") when content is found.

7 - "I often tell the fleet to hold fire and might have killed a scout or a fleet member in the process."
After the fleet, I was told that it is a bad idea to hold fire. Due to my bad situational awareness when I am being provided a substantial amount of information I don't understand and evaluate the state of the scouts and fleet members fast enough. When I call to hold fire is it a split second decision that for some reason I don't put a good amount of thought into it. In the future, this will improve with flying more fleets and observing more experienced FC's when I am in fleets.

For you in first fleets: don't bother too much with holding a fire, just kill stuff ASAP. It is a good practice to declare in the beginning "Guys, i'm emerging FC so..." this will give you excuse for many mistakes (which you still should learn from).
Once you feel more confident - you can consider to hold a fire to get more people on the killmail. In this case, it is your scout whom you should ask if he is tackled or not, and if yes if he can survive. Don't assume, ask.

Another good thing to practice is to make sure you have a secondary point or scram. And you can explicitly call in fleet "somebody confirm secondary" that will be a good signal to a scout/tackle that he can disengage. Though, be mindful about ships that can be stabbed or MJD off - they need extra points/scrams. This will come with experience.

Otherwise: 1.2B ISK killed and lost only few frigates - that is a damn good start, congrats!

P.S. I'd advise to keep comments closer to kills, this helps reading reports and checking kills losses, something like here: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=109926
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Analiese Aubernet

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Post 2018.06.22 04:18

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

W/r/t the Enyos: we were specifically ordered to find the enyos, Calder did find them, but they killed her before I landed on grid and was able to scram one for a trade.

Budda Sereda wrote:If scout found reports "FC, I've tackled xyz" you response can be as simple as "you should not have tackled without command".


Sounds like a great way to lose experienced scouts, and to convince them to avoid scouting for you.




Excellent AAR Ged.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.06.22 12:52

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

Analiese Aubernet wrote:
Budda Sereda wrote:If scout found reports "FC, I've tackled xyz" you response can be as simple as "you should not have tackled without command".


Sounds like a great way to lose experienced scouts, and to convince them to avoid scouting for you.

I hope you read the full comment Analiese:
Clearly, you should not let him die just because he did not communicate his actions in advance, but you should not feel guilty about loss in this case.

Great scout probably should not engage on his own? And would not you advise an emerging scout to report Intel before taking actions? Exceptions happen, yes, but what is the general rule?
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Kora K

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Post 2018.06.22 13:05

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

Budda Sereda wrote:
Analiese Aubernet wrote:
Budda Sereda wrote:If scout found reports "FC, I've tackled xyz" you response can be as simple as "you should not have tackled without command".


Sounds like a great way to lose experienced scouts, and to convince them to avoid scouting for you.

I hope you read the full comment Analiese:
Clearly, you should not let him die just because he did not communicate his actions in advance, but you should not feel guilty about loss in this case.

Great scout probably should not engage on his own? And would not you advise an emerging scout to report Intel before taking actions? Exceptions happen, yes, but what is the general rule?


There is no general rule for the kind of roam we do, it all depends on your relation with your scouts. If Decklin is scouting for me, I'll let him do whatever he wants. If he dies, it's his own fault and he knows it. If I don't know the scout, I'll ask him to warn me before. In the end, unless you ask a scout to suicide tackle, it's always their fault if they die. Edit : That's why you need to guide newbros scouting to avoid them dying too much, until they can judge the situation on their own. Your scouts should be forward FC, capable on dealing with their intel and other scouts intels, and advise you when reporting to you.
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Satoshi Tomeii

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Post 2018.06.22 13:18

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

It was a great fleet. As good or better than many of have experienced in the Uni. Ged, I hope you FC some more during that time slot, because that is perfect for me.

I could go on a lowsec roam 7 nights a week if we had them. Good times!
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Calder Ormand

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Post 2018.06.22 13:21

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

Ged Sinak wrote:5 - "I am bad at keeping control of comms. At times, people were saying "warp here warp here" without consulting me at first. This was caused by me not being assertive enough with my control of the fleet."
Due to my quiet nature, I am not assertive enough and I am not able to keep combat comms in my fleet. I plan on improving this by attempting to speak up more and voice my opinion in a situation. Not hide in the corner and let others do it for me.

6 - "I am bad at avoiding comms silence."
After my fleet was over, I was notified that there were moments during my fleet that my tendency not to speak and be quiet is not good for an FC. In particular, this is the one situation that I don't know the solution to. I don't know what I could be talking about or saying during the moments that I am quiet. Any tips guys?


5. This is one of those things that just improves with practice. As a fleet member it's easy to get a little excited when there's a lot going on and the commands don't seem to be coming fast enough. I don't think comms ever got too crazy though. One thing you can do is establish how you'd ike comms to be before undocking. Helps to set the tone for the rest of the fleet.

6. You could just repeat yourself more and think out loud. Repeating yourself helps keep everyone on track and is really helpful for keeping the newer fleet members from losing there way. I know around Tama there were a few people that got lost while we were bouncing back and forth between systems. Thinking out loud helps the fleet members understand your reasoning for certain decisions you make.

You did a great job FCing Ged! I wouldn't have known it was your first fleet as FC.
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Coaxster

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Post 2018.06.23 16:07

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

What Calder said...

The start of fleet often sets the comms tone for the whole fleet. I tend to be a bit ...unconstrained? so comms on my fleets are often a bit wild. But if you make it clear if the magic words are said (e.g. break break) that folks need to STFU immediately, folks will listen. Personally I find wild comms fleets more fun (as long as fights aren't lost as a result!). Other FCs find it very distracting.

I still tend to mutter on comms when FCing, walking through my thought processes out loud. This is good to keep comms under control if needed and to keep people informed and to help newbies figure out 'hey I could do that'. And for wiser fleet members to point out 'um perhaps the tanky damnation shouldn't be the first primary, FC?'

These things work together as you get experience.

New FCs often take frigates out like you did. But frigate fleets have to move FAST, which is why the comms were a bit crazy on this one. I suggest T1 cruisers to start so you have time to parse incoming information.

Keep flyin deadly!

-Coaxster
--- FCC Graduate! EUNI Graduate! ---

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Budda Sereda

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Post 2018.06.24 03:54

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

Coaxster wrote:New FCs often take frigates out like you did. But frigate fleets have to move FAST, which is why the comms were a bit crazy on this one. I suggest T1 cruisers to start so you have time to parse incoming information.


With frigates it is easier from the point that if you are caught with pants down, chances are you can save 90-95% of the fleet by calling scatter. With cruisers, you are most likely to lose 50% of the fleet.

2Ged: did you obtain the pack of FCC tactical BMs? They are pretty much required to bounce to tactical on any gate in BR.
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Harai Rex

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Post 2018.06.25 02:24

Re: [AAR] Golden Horde Punishers 2018/06/21

I said this after the fleet and I'll say it again now, you did a FANTASTIC job considering this was your first time FCing a fleet. Great work, Ged!

All of the issues you identified in your own performance as FC are things that will naturally improve as you gain more experience. Situational awareness, reaction time, knowledge of geography ("hotspots"), knowledge of matchups vs. different ships, etc. are things that are only really improved by going out and FCing more. When it comes to being too quiet, my advice to you is to try to think out loud when you're unsure what to do. You may think you sound annoying, but its really much more reassuring for a fleet member to hear that the wheels are turning in the FC's head, and it also allows more experienced fleet members to chime in and point you in the right direction. It also helps with comms discipline, as most everybody has the good sense to shut up when the FC is talking. Once again, you did an excellent job as a first time FC, and you should take a moment to pat yourself on the back for that :D

Regarding the discussion about how to handle scouts, I think it depends completely on how experienced your scout is. An experienced scout will be able to hold tackle pretty much indefinitely and disengage at will, so they can be given a large degree of freedom; newbro scouts need a bit more hand-holding, and the safest thing to do with them is to have them follow the FC's commands to a T. The good news is your scouts will often sort themselves for you: more experienced scouts know who they are and will roam far and wide without you telling them to do so, while newbro scouts will play it safe and just wait for your orders. Flying in a frigate fleet complicates things, as an interceptor goes a long way towards letting experienced scouts tackle and disengage at will, and having a T1 frig fleet means the scout needs to restrict themselves to a T1 frig hull.

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