[NPSI] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

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Budda Sereda
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[NPSI] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Budda Sereda »

You can guess from the title... it was quite intense :)

There were quite a few things in a fleet, and definitely some learning material for me. Yet, whooping 21B in kills let me reasons to say: it was cool fleet!

See below for more details.

We had quite a few EWars, 2 CDs, combat probber, and 3 logies:
Roam members (33)
Spoiler
Aeryn Tzun - Griffin, Nemesis
Amber Charante - Harpy
Analiese Aubernet - Keres, Malediction
Budda Sereda - Harpy
Castor Udan
Chaos Zyn - Harpy
Coaxster - Harpy
Dundo Nardieu - Harpy
Farfalla Catmobile - Cheetah
Freyjia Aryana - Burst
GER ST4UBS4UGER - Jackdaw
Gemma Solett - Maulus, Caldari Navy Hookbill
Glen Burney - Stiletto, Thrasher
Hank Asanari - Cormorant
Himi Tawate - Kirin
Jack Firm - Hyena
KPYTOE KOPOBO - Scalpel
Ludi Burek - Svipul
Mashiro Rima - Taranis, Hecate
Mister Shushu - Heretic
Mols Halleck - Stork
Peter Pantaloons - Talwar, Cormorant
Reed Gryphon
Rohan Amadeus - Hyena
Satoshi Tomeii - Harpy
Solo Truong - Tristan
Sone Eto - Vigil Fleet Issue, Maulus
Tor Elend - Harpy
Vin Virgo - Harpy
Virion Stoneshard - Jackdaw
Wokum - Executioner, Worm
Xafen Katapi - Tristan, Executioner
Z0X Ambrye - Stiletto
Today we got quite a few people from E-Uni, including those who were not visible online for quite awhile. And as usual, with SF, quite a few new (to me) pilots. Among others, we had one of key Spectre Fleet leader - Virion Stoneshard!

Mashiro Rima was a primary scout and set the tone to move really fast. On Glen's advise we hold in Aldranette to let targets appear on a grid, scouts spread out quite far from the fleet, but we only found content in Eha:

(01:44:02) Eha
Arbitrator +113.47m

For quite awhile Virion was reporting about content in Akidagi, but unfortunately, we were already near Innia and to my regret, I was forced to let Virion wait. When we came to Aki, we've non-flashy Brutix. Eventually, it jumped into us and was killed, but we also lost few pilots due to gate guns :(

(01:56:17) Aivonen
Brutix +87.56m
Griffin -0.7m - no rigs? Why?
Scalpel -87.95m ... :( logies also need to align out
Taranis -47.66m ... ceptors too....

Dramiel and Garmur tried to play with us and Dramiel pilot overestimated his skills to stay alive:
Dramiel +56.03m

We saw Hyperion in system, tried to bait him into a fight, he docked up, I got fleet to NeN gate... and Hyperion landed with us. We booshed him successfully, but were not able to break. Command Dessie pilot died legitimately, other made mistakes.

(02:04:47) Akidagi
Republic Fleet Firetail +31.68m
Talwar -9.88m
Stork -98.67m
Vigil Fleet Issue -24.39m

I was skeptical we can break Hyperion, (tripple rep fits, you know), but once we got him into hull, and there was a hope. Yet, later it appeared he was skillfully baiting us while he got friends. First, they had a Munnins landed on grid, later VNI.

That time there was still a hope to break Hyperion, but I believe at THIS moment I should have called it and switch to Munin and VNI: they for sure don't have that good tank. In a minute I decided to go for it, but those folks get additional reinforcements: Tornado, Typhoon, quite a few more small ships.

I called fleet to align out and warped fleet safely with exception on Virion, who was whole this time perma scramming Hyperion.

Sorry Virion.

(02:14:54) Akidagi
Stiletto -65.45m
Cormorant -15.78m
Stiletto -59.03m
Jackdaw -137.65m

After the fleet I was blamed in incompetence for not switching to Munnin earlier. ATM it looks easy and clear, but that Hyperion was baitign so well... :(

The only small moral compensation is that Garmur who tackled Z0X and Glen was killed soon after:
(02:23:44) Nennamaila
Garmur +100.73m

We moved towards Tama and met Cruicifier
(02:37:16) Kedama
Crucifier +14.3m

And... another tripple rep BS. Assumingly, Praxis does not have THAT tank, and I've decided to go for it again. We got some loses, during the fight we got message that Mister Shishu was tackled 3 jumps away,... and I almost gave up on that Praxis, but at this right moment he run out ot cap and paste and I called to stay on it for a bit more, this time he went down:
Cheetah -67.53m
Tristan -8.78m
Maulus -4.15m
Praxis +717.88m

I called to pick-up loot, but looks like SOME people (especially those who complain the most) don't respect enough junior-ish FCs and ... Leaving loot for themselves. Anyway, we moved to save Mr. Shishu.

Apparently, he really switched to Moros and was bringing more DPS... @Mister Shushu: I'm thankful for the initiative, but... I'd appreciate if you call your actions so FC has clue on what's going on. Typing in fleet chat does not help me while we have engagement, even if that is a single target. Maybe I should improve, but please speak-up.

When we warped into Hik, I learned there are QUITE A FEW ships, called fleet to hold and warped at least some of us together. When we landed we could not scram anything:
Hyena -140.92m
Executioner -9.89m
Catalyst +13.48m

We moved on towards Tama again and scout reported Nidhoggur named something like 'Insurance Fraud".

TBH, I was already tired of these baiting super ships in a fleet of kiting frigates... but... let's try it out. At least that is another practice to stay alive on a grid with big ships. I did have quite a few good scouts that could stay alive and decided to give it another try.
We had many risks: we could be active tank and can tank us easily. Or he can disengage on time and jump away...

We engaged Nid, and quite soon we had a fleet of Gilas with Basys joining the fight. I called fleet to pull the range and watch if Gilas engage us. They were poking us but did not really engage.

This time I appreciated long range doctrine: I'm afraid that with any sort of brawling fits Gilas would switch to us first. Nid realized the danger, disengaed and jumped through. Analiese was on guard and tackled him on the other side. I messaged to local about Nid tackled, bounced fleet, and called to jump through:

(02:56:08) Hikkoken
Tristan -8.44m

Shortly party was joined by many other capitals, which I have not even noticed in such a crowded overview.

I called us to stay at 50km range, aligned out. Some of us were able to land on killmails:
(03:02:31) Pynekastoh
Nidhoggur +2030.39m
Condor +1.2m
Naglfar +3427.36m
Naglfar +2418.57m
Phoenix +3569.14m
Phoenix +3661.23m
Phoenix +4973.33m
Harpy -54.18m
Tristan -8.29m

I guess we could try to do something differently, for example. Warp to tactical 500km away from grid, align to the gate, tackle struggler, and run away before he gets reinforcements... But we would not be able to do this for any more or less big targets, and there was quite a lot of small targets so I did not take a risk of doing that.

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 21,216,365,502.97
ISK Lost: 849,330,542.11
ISK Delta: 20,367,034,960.86
Efficiency: 96.151%

Overall evaluation
  • (Positive stuff)
    * LOT OF CONTENT! - i guess this was the most important?
    * quite a lot of kills!
    * quite a lot of experience for me as FC.
    * same as last time, VERY good scouts: hard to stay up to speed with them, forced to learn many things. Thanks all: Analiese, Z0X, Glen, Coaxster, Mashiro!
    (Negative stuff)
    * for my more than a year of FCing I was rarely in situations as today and did not really have good experience or understanding how to handle some things. We probably should not have engaged that Hyper at all. Or at least don't commit and pick-up his friends.
    * neither I was able to join other fleet with such level of content or scouting: really did not even see others FCs performing in situations like these. The only exception was Glen: 1-2 times I remember we were sitting on a grid with LOTS of stuff.
    * with such a big fleet, I had yet just around 15 DD ships: had way to many ewars. I did call for one 1 Keres, 2 ceptors, but on top of that had 2 Hyenas, 2 Maulus. That was good from one perspective, but bad from another...
I'd like to ask those who've been at fleet:
1. What I could do better. Switch to Muninn/VNI - one thing. Anything else?
2. How do you think Rail Harpies (or just small long range kitey ships) perform in general? IMHO they good engaging at the range, especially with low amount of logies, but their DPS is so low...
3. Was success of 2 recently fleets (see the previous one: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=109530) anyhow related to the doctrine? I feel it is just pure luck, but twice in a row?

P.S. I've paid out SRP to T2 scouts and support ships.
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Yuri Titov
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Yuri Titov »

Nice title
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Laser Skaron »

Budda Sereda wrote: Scalpel -87.95m ... :( logies also need to align out
Logi, please don't whore on gates in low sec. There's plenty of kills you can get during the fight but on gates it's just not worth it... That way you can just safely stay on grid, avoid all fire, and keep everyone alive while they warp out. Logi don't need to fight aligned on gates, they just need to not whore and guns will not be a factor for them. Especially for frigate logi.

Also - huh? quafe zero on frigate logi? really? that's a third of your ship's value... At least wear A-Type reps as well as you basically get 50% extra repping power.
Budda Sereda wrote: After the fleet I was blamed in incompetence for not switching to Munnin earlier. ATM it looks easy and clear, but that Hyperion was baitign so well... :(
I wonder how common this is outside e-uni... Calling FCs incompetent like that... Ow well.
Budda Sereda wrote: I called us to stay at 50km range, aligned out. Some of us were able to land on killmails:
(03:02:31) Pynekastoh
Nidhoggur +2030.39m
Condor +1.2m
Naglfar +3427.36m
Naglfar +2418.57m
Phoenix +3569.14m
Phoenix +3661.23m
Phoenix +4973.33m
Harpy -54.18m
Tristan -8.29m
On the one hand, that looks super fun, congrats! On the other, it just shows how misleading these stats can be at times when whoring is involved XD.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Budda Sereda »

True, the only cap kill I really count is the very first one which we really worked on. The rest are just nice to see numbers, also because very few landed on kills.

I admit, that was a challenge to get on kills and stay alive: few times I landed and needed to run away immediately. One of the challenges was to identify those caps in between of the rest of 50 flashy lines...

Would love to hear comments from Glen on that, he was more successful.
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Glen Burney »

So first, regarding people complaining about the FC and blaming yadda yadda... Budda, you are the FC. You make the call, and anyone who questions you should wait until after the fleet to do so. I heard the complaints during the fleet, but it didn't continue. I logged off before the after-fleet discussion, maybe there was more griping. If so, I cannot comment, I was not there.

This was a 1/2 UNI and 1/2 Spectre fleet, and those out of corp people are not obligated to follow the Uni Rules of Behavior. That hasn't been a problem to this point, but some Spectre pilots are a bit rougher around the edges and have a set of goals that sometimes align to what we do in the UNI, and sometimes not. Many of them have a TON of experience playing the game, and they can get impatient. My advice is to continue trying to learn and do your best. We should also make sure that we as Uni FCs don't turn into "Spectre Junkies", we can do this by running some UNI-only fleets. Much of what we do on Spectre roams could be called advanced, with booshing, gatecamping with pinging off to shed gateguns, and getting close to some nasty big stuff for whoring. While this is great stuff for medium - advanced pilots, it can really confuse new pilots, and lead to bad habits. This is advice for me too: more UNI fleets, less combined UNI-Spectre fleets. Remember our mission, we are a learning organization.

Regarding your specific questions:

For the battleship that we couldn't break... I was also surprised! We plunked at the guy for a while, but he continued to hurt us, and we never broke him. When that Munin got to within 50km though, I think I would have called to switch targets. The Munin was working well with the Garmur pilot who was able to scram our inties, it was a really nice combination. You are the FC though, you make the call. You might have called to switch, and then we could have had trouble with the Munin. They had a VNI on grid too, and more was landing. You did call scatter when appropriate i thought.

For the Carrier enounter, after the Gilas came, we bounced to a ping, which is correct. At that point, the only thing we could do was whore on killmails. Our DPS was inconsequential. The best way I know to do this is:
1) make sure you don't have a weapons timer.
2) warp to the gate.
3) align out to your ping.
4) shoot a target to whore.
5) warp to your ping.
6) GoTo 1.

With this approach, if you are pointed before you get to whore (during Step 3), you can jump the gate.

The other thing you can do in those situations is "Drive By". Get a good warpin on a squishy target (T1 cruiser and down), warp the fleet to it, blap it and run away.

I'm a pretty positive guy, so I thought the roam was fine. That tanky BS put himself in harms way and he came out ahead, good on him. We did a great job booshing him off. Maybe we could have kilt the Munin, maybe not. Thanks for FC'ing!

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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Conci Furiram »

Can you post fleet stats without the whoring? I'm curious to see that efficiency.
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Alexander Oromov »

To your third question: A good doctrine goes a long way, but does not guarantee success.

What is far more important in my eyes is the number and experience of pilots, scouts and FC s involved.

Yet, Rail-Harpies are also one of the strongest frigate doctrines in the game. In GalMil we've contested plexes murderizing entire Cormorant and Caracal gangs without loosing anyone of ours.

So, looking at your AARs, I assume it's a mix of doctrine, numbers and experience levels.
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Wokum »

Great fleet and lots of fun. I missed out on some of the whoring because I was reshipping but got in on the Niddy. Anyone who left in a prissy fit missed out on some great action.
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Satoshi Tomeii »

I was honestly a bit offended when negativity was being said in fleet chat. It was a great fleet. We saw shiny things and shot them.

FCing is not easy by any means - even never having done it that seems obvious enough to me. Budda, I have thoroughly enjoyed every one of your fleets.

This fleet that we have been doing pretty much weekly at this point fits well into my schedule as a more "advanced" fleet. The NoP Monday Roam would be a great beginner fleet. Both of them are fulfilling the Uni's mission quite well imho.

Looking forward to next week!
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Re: [FLEET] Rail Harpies: whoring 21B ISK - 6 capitals down

Post by Budda Sereda »

Conci Furiram wrote:Can you post fleet stats without the whoring? I'm curious to see that efficiency.
As I already mentioned, the only cap kill I really count is the very first one which we really worked on. You can easily to do math by substracting 5 last kills...

But,... why are you asking Conci? What's the matter?

Clearly, you can do math so I assume you want to say something by this question..?

Yeah, we post AARs to learn, but also to brag. And let me make it clear, even though it was not us who killed those 5 caps, there is also my contribution. Why do you think they were killed? I am sure because one junior, but brave and a bit overconfident FC decided to take the risk and engage the capital. And he did even he clearly understood that he has not enough DPS to break literally anything with strong active reps. We kept that Nig on grid long enough for Gilas to come, thanks to Analiese we hold it on the other side of the gate. That forced escalation and skilled pilots were able to get on kills. Without whoring we would have 3B ISK in plus and efficiency would be around 60-70%.

But... who REALLY cares? I can show you fleets with the same efficiency without whoring (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=109266) I can also show you completely devastating fleets (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=109378).

Does it indicate I'm a great FC, I guess not. But when ISK efficiency told something about skills? :) Actually, it does, but till some extent only.

What matters is if pilots learned something and they join next fleet.
Alexander Oromov wrote:Yet, Rail-Harpies are also one of the strongest frigate doctrines in the game. In GalMil we've contested plexes murderizing entire Cormorant and Caracal gangs without loosing anyone of ours.
I feel that from my doctrine (https://spectrefleet.com/doctrine/fleet/434) I indeed need to replace ADC by MFS, we do lack DPS severely, and staying at range we don't REALLY need that extra tank. It is nice to have and helps to compensate mistakes (And now I should give a credit to Conci - it is he who brought my attention to this).
Wokum wrote:Great fleet and lots of fun.
Satoshi Tomeii wrote:... It was a great fleet.
This fleet that we have been doing pretty much weekly at this point fits well into my schedule as a more "advanced" fleet. The NoP Monday Roam would be a great beginner fleet. Both of them are fulfilling the Uni's mission quite well imho.
Looking forward to next week!
Thanks guys! I'm glad you enjoy it!
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