[AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

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Alexander Oromov
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[AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Alexander Oromov »

Debriefing

At around 19:10 we undocked with a Wolf Pack of 16 (mostly in Comets and Atrons) and got 4 more over the course of fleet.

With us was Decklin's Sexy Sentinel, Sone's almost Invincible Gank Catalyst, and Auric's "Le Jam" Solo Logi (or shall we call it "Griffin"?). We got ourselves 4x noticeable ganks, 3x fleet engagements, lost the entire fleet in Nennamaila, and did fade out fleet with 3 waves of Ducklings.

FC Fleet Evaluation
Spoiler
Fleet Awareness ------- ♦ ♦
  • Communication in fleet was precise, informative.
    Fleet was heavy on experience, especially with Decklin, Kora, Union, and B'aldrick stepping up.
    As Scout-FC, I did die and reship twice, potentially costing us the fleet in Nennamaila.
Fleet Cohesion -------- ♦ ♦
  • Despite NOT following a specific doctrine, most of us were in Comets and Atrons.
    Despite NOT relying on navigation broadcasts, fleet was on their toes.
    Having to micromanage drones, guns, repairs, and heat overwhelms some, causing cohesion to drop a bit.
Fleet Energy ---------- ♦ ♦
  • I did put in a bit less energy into my FC style this time, mainly due to not knowing what to expect tonight.
    Having had some new faces in fleet, I did let comms flow and it turned out quite enjoyable actually.
    Props to the many pilots who kept going after we lost in Nennamaila! Great sportsmanship.
How to Improve Future Fleets
Spoiler
Commanding fleet from the scouting chair, has never worked out well for me. I'm not able to focus on the command nor the tackle part properly. The only pilot I've seen doing it efficiently, consistently is Roy Henry. For the sake of fleet, I should either get better at it or stop doing it.

I'll keep offering scouting and tackling practices to keep our adorable newbies evolving into a strong force of PVP-ers. scouts and commanders.

Regarding micromanaging something like a Comet or Algos, I can only suggest people to fly them solo or do some PVE missions with them. Learning to use shortkeys, drones, and multiple modules while having to manage heat is key to successful piloting and fleet engagements.

Go out there and keep trying out new toys. You'll be surprised how far you can go with a little bit of solo practice.

Roam members (20)
Spoiler
Alexander Oromov - Federation Navy Comet, Malediction, Republic Fleet Firetail, Atron
Auric Fulcrum - Griffin, Atron
B'aldrick Aivoras - Federation Navy Comet, Incursus
Decklin Quark Reiger - Sentinel, Algos
Derby Dank - Atron
Johnny Haugwitz - Merlin, Heron
Jor'Ox - Tristan
Jun Mikoto - Kestrel, Atron
Kora K - Federation Navy Comet
Nathan Tamroc - Federation Navy Comet, Atron
Prince Tojo - Harpy
Sone Eto - Catalyst
The Jojosh - Maulus
Thibauld Solette - Atron
Torg Navatin - Federation Navy Comet
Trillian Ituin - Federation Navy Comet
Union Pivo - Federation Navy Comet, Atron
Zoltan Irvam - Atron
Zykey Jovakko - Federation Navy Comet
averoth trojan - Federation Navy Comet, Atron
Kills and Losses

(19:27:01) Oicx
Brutix Navy Issue +250.94m

(19:44:01) Ohbochi
Vexor Navy Issue +255.24m

Interesting: Surprisingly, I was able to tank incoming damage well, until I got neuted out and my repairs shut down.

(19:53:45) Kinakka
Federation Navy Comet -32.66m
Brutix +96.31m

Interesting: I didn't pay attention to the names, but when I saw who those guys were, all was clear. Those pilots know their game and they will kite and pick apart anyone new to their tactics and anyone who hasn't the right toys available. Caught off-guard we lost Decklin, Zykey, and me.

(20:11:03) Nennamaila
Malediction -49.17m
Sentinel -67.23m
Federation Navy Comet -33.61m

Now, this is where we (and especially I) failed a bit. I did let loose on fleet while reshipping. I did see what's coming and we lost fleet in the following way:
  • 1.) They warped in a HFI (can't call it a bait fit, it's more of a beefy attention drawer, getting us to pile up on something that can survive fine on its own and still deal acceptable damage)

    We did indeed pile up on him, unfolding the game. Look at it like a chess game in which at that moment we were still ahead.

    2.) Next, they warped in the Confessor's at their optimal range, which we knew that they will be coming and that they were heavy DPS fitted squishies. The first target that's been picked off was the Griffin right away.

    What happened next, is that we didn't react forceful enough and did neglect our initial advantage. Staying on the HFI gave them more then enough time to pick us off, one by one. Instead we should have hazed off or killed the most certainly blinggy Confessors, while keeping a long point on the HFI and finish him once isolated on his own.
Now, I'm to blame for not having been on grid, because the little space chess party had already unfolded in my mind, before we did engage. So, I did try to convey the course of action by relaying information to the Griffin pilot to be careful (too late) and the fleet to keep pretending to shot the HFI and immediately approach the Confessor's once they land. Not being on grid, makes it endlessly difficult to FC, especially when someone else is calling the shots. Now, I could have spoken over combat comms, which I felt would be a bit reckless and probably confuse the majority of fleet. At the end, it is as it is, we took a good beating from a great group of very well versed pilots and we learned.

(20:21:39) Nennamaila
Griffin -9.07m
Maulus -1.52m
Tristan -51.65m
Federation Navy Comet -29.3m
Merlin -3.74m
Harpy -68.24m
Federation Navy Comet -32.41m
Federation Navy Comet -26.25m
Atron -10.29m
Atron -1.58m
Kestrel -8.1m
Federation Navy Comet -34.33m
Republic Fleet Firetail -45.57m
Federation Navy Comet -34.1m
Atron -2.63m
Algos -12.32m

From here we reshipped into Ducklings and went out 3x times to suicide gank into targets of opportunity.

(20:35:08) Pynekastoh
Rifter +10.56m

Kora left fleet, just as Auric did reship into a "Le Jam" Griffin. ^^

(20:47:04) Abune
Nereus +29.5m
Atron -1.59m
Atron -1.57m
Atron -1.57m
Atron -4.51m
Atron -1.53m
Atron -1.55m
Osprey Navy Issue +92.2m
Atron -1.57m
Griffin -1.31m

At this point, I found out that Sone's Catalyst had survived every single engagement. I was blown away. Sorry Sone, it was almost a "perfect fleet" for you. Almost.

(20:58:41) Abune
Atron -1.59m
Catalyst -11.48m
Atron -1.58m
Atron -1.58m
Atron -1.54m
Osprey Navy Issue +101.8m

(21:14:11) Nennamaila
Heron +2.2m
Rifter +12.41m

(21:21:41) Nennamaila
Kestrel -10.87m
Atron -2.49m
Atron -1.59m
Capsule -0.01m

(21:28:38) Nennamaila
Atron -1.75m
Atron -1.61m
Atron -1.6m


Stats

ISK Destroyed: 851,172,200.87
ISK Lost: 600,355,941.73
ISK Delta: 250,816,259.14
Efficiency: 60.199%

____________________________________________________
Submit your feedback and reimbursement requests through the Fleet Feedback and Ship Replacement Program forms.
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Zoltan Irvam
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Zoltan Irvam »

Hi,

thanks for a fun fleet, Alexander - I really enjoyed this one!

Zoltan!
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averoth trojan
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by averoth trojan »

Thanks for the fleet, great fun, awesome content! As far as the newbros scouts go, I'll try to volunteer more often; I don't do it, not because of the lack of scouting knowledge (the practicals with you really helped, wouldn't mind doing some more), but because I find I'm a bit slow in applying said knowledge and identifying potential targets, catching them and maybe 1st tackle them, etc; but guess practice is the only thing that helps with that.
And yeah, I'm going to make a habit out of flying new ships solo, in order to identify when/how to use multiple modules (drones, tackle, repairs, etc) and to get used to things like active tanking (comet).
Would also be nice if there was a thermodynamics/overheating class (I'll make a post in the lecture request forums), since I for one don't fully understand how not to burn out modules, so I end up using overheating a bit randomly.
All in all, great fleets, great pacing, and super useful tips during and after fleets so thanks a bunch and cya at the next one!
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Harai Rex
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Harai Rex »

Glad to hear this was a fun fleet! Having read through the AAR, I have a few thoughts about the command structure of your fleet and how it impacted your roam for the worse.

First, scouting as FC (AKA FC scouting): your own analysis was pretty spot on as to why this is a bad idea. Scouting narrows your focus to a single system, looking for targets and trying to catch them. As FC, you really need to be looking at the bigger picture, as content can come from any direction. One of the most common issues I see with FC scouting is when a neutral lands on the fleet while the FC is scouting the next system; often, the FC is too focused on scouting to properly call the engagement the fleet finds itself in, and has to waste precious time warping back to gate and jumping through. You mention Roy Henry as the only FC you've ever seen consistently pull it off. IMO, FC scouting is absolutely never ideal, particularly with fleets bigger than 10 people. FC scouting can be workable on small roams with experienced pilots, but even then having a dedicated scout is better.

Second, I'd like to offer some thoughts on your decision to have the fleet keep roaming while you reshipped. Its not clear in your AAR if you had a 2IC who took over while you reshipped. If you as FC are not able to be on grid with your fleet for whatever reason, you absolutely need to have a 2IC who you give complete control of the fleet to until you return. FCing from off grid is never a good idea. You used the metaphor of a game of chess to talk about the fleet engagement but, unfortunately, Eve doesn't work like that; fleet fights aren't turn based, your 'pieces' (i.e. fleet members) don't always execute their moves perfectly, and you don't have much time to make tactical decisions. All these factors combine to make effective FCing from off grid borderline impossible: effective command in a fight REQUIRES you being on the field watching the battle unfold second by second. Any delay costs you ships and tactical advantage. In the AAR, you wonder whether you should have disrupted combat comms to give orders from off grid: doing this would've sown even more confusion in the fleet, and your reliance on other pilots feeding you info on how the battle was going would've made it impossible to properly call the fight. As an FC, your best, I would say only, options in a situation where you aren't with the fleet are to hand the fleet over to a 2IC you trust and keep quiet until you return, or have the fleet dock up until you're back.

I don't mean any disrespect with my feedback; overall, it looks like you did a good job with this fleet, netting some high-value kills and delivering a good time to your fleet members. I wasn't on the fleet, so my feedback is completely based off the writeup. If I have any facts wrong, please correct me.
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Jun Mikoto
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Jun Mikoto »

@Harai - We had Kora and Decklin as 2/3IC.

We had a good start, was on time. The lack of content reduced our pace a bit in the beginning and therefore we didn't build up the great momentum as we did the last wolfpack. But in the end we had enough opportunities to practice.

I don't poke into the scout FC thing. I am so pissed by myself for having 0 situational awareness this fleet, even my wife told me today in the morning "You look like your game was terrible"... My first loss was avoidable, and the second was pure idiocy (i don't count the duckling)... sorry for calling you in guys.

So i'm looking forward to the next one Alex! o7
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Decklin Quark Reiger
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

Yeah, the chain of command was in place. We both Alexander and I were reshipping at the time, and Kora was scouting from a couple systems away, so I gave Baldrick command, and when he went down, Union stepped up.

It was great having that chain of command handled quickly and clearly.

For the tactics of the fight, obviously it wasn't turn-based, but indeed the opponents' fight movements and actions went as I predicted as well. Our fleet didn't quite respond as well as we could have, but Alexander's description of what we *could* do next time is spot on.

(There wasn't any cross-talk during the combat which is good. After the fight we talked about it a bit.)
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Alexander Oromov
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Alexander Oromov »

Thanks Zoltan and averoth! Really appreciate the feedback and glad to hear that you had fun with fleet! I too quite enjoyed it.


----


Harai, thanks for the feedback. Glad to see the discussion going. Looks like Jun and Decklin pointed out already (man I'm slow to reply, my gril absorbing all attention here haha), we did pass command across the preset command chain. I should have made it clear in the AAR.

What you're saying feels absolutely correct to me. Luckily FC Scouting happens only every once in a while, but when it happens performance drops are to be expected (and I wouldn't have had to reship twice - ergo not slowing down the flow of fleet).

I partially agree with your comment on the chess metaphor. Agree that on field action (piloting) is not turn based, however overarching strategies on how you want the fight to unfold can be, especially in sequential situations such as baits, station games, traps, capital escalation, and alike.

What's definitely more exciting than chess though is that you never have all the information in front of you, but need to scout, spy, or use experience to fill in the gaps. It's just one of the coolest games! May it live another 15 years and more. :)


----


Jun, can't be worse than my own tackle attempts the last few fleets :) You're good. However, I'm amazed your wife took it so lightly. My gril would have been: "Alex! Did you do that fleet command thing yesterday again? Do something useful and bring out the trash!"

...ok, isn't so dramatic in reality, but I can feel it goes into this direction sometimes... so most of the time I'm stealth FCing. :P Psss... don't tell her.
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Torg Navatin
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Torg Navatin »

Alexander Oromov wrote: Now, I'm to blame for not having been on grid, because the little space chess party had already unfolded in my mind, before we did engage. So, I did try to convey the course of action by relaying information to the Griffin pilot to be careful (too late) and the fleet to keep pretending to shot the HFI and immediately approach the Confessor's once they land. Not being on grid, makes it endlessly difficult to FC, especially when someone else is calling the shots. Now, I could have spoken over combat comms, which I felt would be a bit reckless and probably confuse the majority of fleet.
I almostalmostalmost wanted to shout on comms "Hey, wasn't the plan that us fast'uns break for the Confessors?" but shut up and staid on the "primary". Lesson learned...Snipey bastards!

Fun fleet all in all (not least because I bagged the first KM on the BNI :-)
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Zykey Jovakko
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Zykey Jovakko »

For my part I this, I heard the discussion about pre-fight tactics and fully understood them. Then I completely mind-f**ked in the actual fight by just applying dps to the big thing even though all comet pilots were told to try to scram/web the confessors and take them out of the fight. Sorry for being a derp.
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Jun Mikoto
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Re: [AAR] Wolf Pack - Monday, 7th of May

Post by Jun Mikoto »

Alexander Oromov wrote:I'm amazed your wife took it so lightly.
It was more like:

her: "STFU and don't blame me for having a piece of shit game."
me: "What? How can you...."
her: "I can tell it from how you look."

And it was tuesday morning :oops:
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