[NANO FLEET] Small Gang Thursday - Kitey Cruisers II

[Budda Sereda]

Khe-khe.

Obsessed by the idea to master nano gang skills and encouraged by the success of the previous fleet (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=109266) I was looking into having another fun day. This time with hopefully a bit higher DPS (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 8&p=887756).

Khm-Khm.

You guys already know that big does not mean better in EVE, do you?

We got slightly less people, still really GOOD for a small gang. Originally, there were 3 pilots willing to undock the Attack Battle cruiser, but I called that's too much and we won't have adequate support, so 1 switched into a ceptor, another into a Omen. Same as last time, Mols got a logy.
Also, I got my alt in a combat probbing Imicus. Did not make any use of it, but brought it back alive

Spoiler

Budda Sereda - Omen, Caldari Navy Hookbill
Gemma Solett - Malediction
Harai Rex - Malediction
Mauritun - Omen
Mols Halleck - Exequror
Ubercado - Tornado
Xafen Katapi - Omen, Coercer

I believe I will start with what was good.

0. We got a returning unista who remember very early years of E-Uni: Welcome back Ubercado!
1. It was quite a bit of content
2. The content was more or less engageable (though rarely in our favour)
3. I got an experience of dual-boxing an alt, getting some skills... Was hard, maybe that partially impacted my FCing...? Dunno.
4. Learning experience

What could be better.

Instead of describing usual sequence of events, I will focus on mistakes, which I hope we've learned. Also because there are not that many good things we really did.

1. Check fits before undocks.

I was glad we got SO MANY BCs that I did not check fit for the one that left in the fleet. It was probably not bad (has enough speed and agility), but has low range and tackle midslots that were not supposed to be used in this sort of fleet. 2 webs and point are not an appropriate fit for a combat BC in a nano gang. What would benefit more a tracking computer with scripts for range and tracking, maybe cab booster.

2. Don't sit still on grid in a ceptor.

We just undocked and traditionally met waiting Salty players. TBH, I'm already afraid of them. Yet, scout reported a bunch of them, 2 confessors, Canes, something else, ... they were sitting in Large, something warped out, confessors landed... and I hear in comms "Ups, I'm dead".
I assume those fessors were beam fit and maybe had sensor boosters fit and Harai just did not expect to be pretty much alphaed.

3. Know opponent strenghts

(02:20:25) Dastryns
Malediction -40.3m

Supported by this result, I decided to not engage Salty with just 3 CR and 1 BC (even though we were kity).
I assume that Daniel Essig follows on my in-game channel, knows date/time/fit of my fleets and waiting ready with a solid counter.

So, we moved on. In just 1 system from OST we found a Magus hanging around the station. While Gemma tried to bait him into a fight, his friend undocked a Vindi. I don't remember more details, but Gemma reported: "ups, I'm webbed, and pointed". After losing his single advantage (speed), he was killed:

(02:28:38) Agoze
Malediction -48.04m

I guess Gemma was out of a docking range, but not far enough to escape webs from Vindi...?

Yes, even though we lost another scout (both ceptor pilots reshipped quickly) we tried to play with those folks. For a while we were hunting Magus near stations, at some point, we learned they are skilled enough to not make a mistake: Magus was often activating his comand links, but did not make mistake to warp to a station with a weapon timer.

To not make other mistakes I called it and led fleet away.

4. Keep learning and improving

I was not expecting those guys will follow us. They did. OK, they can't dock to a station, right? But they still can jump through.

Ok, I knew we are going to take losses. Yes, I did. Yet, that's why we undocked: to practice.

We were kity, they were more powerful. We tried to kill Magus and once we got him REALLY low into structure, but failed to land scram and he MJDed away. Yet, few of us made small mistakes, were neuted, webbed and killed:

(02:44:04) Vey
Omen -24.16m
Malediction -45.08m

That was really enough, I decided to seek for easier targets. Especially because they got one more friend joining them in a Nightmare.

5. Disengage QUICKLY!

Again, we warped away, jumped, warped again... But, either I was slow moving the fleet or Tornado appeared to be too slow to run... it was caught.

(02:53:09) Frarie
Tornado -88.14m

For good or for bad, Ubercado did not call it until he was died. Sorry to learn about that.

6. Don't be lazy

Nothing really special, scouts found Thrasher outside of the plex, tackled it, Harai made few scrum passes (nice skill!), and we killed it. The only thing is I assumed we will kill it REALLY quickly so I did not load short range ammo, neither tried to pilot my ship to stay out of range, neither even clicking "Orbit" command. I approached Thrasher. Thanks to Mols and OH my MAAR I survived, but it was close.
Though, that may distracted pilots from warping the capsule off so we killed its capsule too.

(03:19:50) Hikkoken
Thrasher +13.09m
Capsule +20.39m

(03:46:03) Rakapas
Coercer +12.04m

7. Watch overview (or don't be stupid blind)

That was pure lol. Gemma baited Caracal into a fight: Gemma was flashy, Caracal aggressed him, Harai landed secondary, Gemma worped away in structure (GOOD JOB Gemma).

I landed and pointed Caracal too. The only thing both Harai and myself missed is that Caracal was not flashy. I was trying to stay in point range so was pointed back and did not have time to disengage quickly. Luckily somebody killed that caracal.

(03:52:30) Kedama
Malediction -43.62m
Omen -42.4m
Caracal +31.06m

8. Don't assume miners are defenseless

On the way back, Gemma found miners, tackled Mastodon it warped away, he tackled Skiff - he was staying... we warped fleet, started applying damage. First they brought Condor - we pushed it back. 2nd Jaguar, we pushed it back too. But after that they undocked Myrmidon, and together with Jaguar and Condor get us all down.

(04:07:34) Enaluri
Coercer -15.5m
Exequror -21.43m
Caldari Navy Hookbill -16.51m
Omen -37.91m

ISK Destroyed: 76,577,107.43
ISK Lost: 423,102,863.02
ISK Delta: -346,525,755.59
Efficiency: 15.325%

Yeah, quite a lesson. I can't say I enjoyed the fleet or learning, it was harsh.

Yet, I will keep learning and keep running small nano gang fleets. Hope you guys get neither discouraged nor scared and will keep participating.

The only small improvement I'll do is that instead of a Combat BC (Oracle) I will try to come up with nano gang fits for Attack BCs: they have additional SRP from E-Uni, are cheaper to fit and require lesser skills. Tornado with ACs could be a good start, but Oracle will be still more than welcome for fleets!

P.S. Feel free to submit your feedback if you want to stay anonimous: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... rm?c=0&w=1

[Budda Sereda]

And scouts got extended SRP, thanks for your support Harai and Gemma!
Thanks Mol for logy!
Thanks Ubercado for high DPS!
And Mauritun and Xafen for joining!

[Glasi Vookto]

Nothing really special, scouts found Thrasher outside of the plex, tackled it, Harai made few scrum passes (nice skill!), and we killed it. The only thing is I assumed we will kill it REALLY quickly so I did not load short range ammo, neither tried to pilot my ship to stay out of range, neither even clicking "Orbit" command. I approached Thrasher. Thanks to Mols and OH my MAAR I survived, but it was close.
Though, that may distracted pilots from warping the capsule off so we killed its capsule too.

(03:19:50) Hikkoken
Thrasher +13.09m
Capsule +20.39m

Tough fight, the Thrasher almost got you all, lol

Joke aside, what your gang was severely lacking was any kind of anti-support. Beam Omens are terribad at applying to small stuff which makes your gang extremely vulnerable, especially in lowsec. I'm willing to bet this was the main reason you all died in the last fight too.

Besides, that Tornado fit was horrible, the Exequror was meh, and the inties would need a touch of improvement. I don't have access to the fleet announcement threads, but I do hope you have a post with recommended fits. Otherwise, you can dig up some of my old posts, or ask and I can recommend you fits for the ships you're missing. From my experience, you can't trust unistas to come up with their own fits, most of them lack the experience to build one up.

The only small improvement I'll do is that instead of a Combat BC (Oracle) I will try to come up with nano gang fits for Attack BCs: they have additional SRP from E-Uni, are cheaper to fit and require lesser skills. Tornado with ACs could be a good start, but Oracle will be still more than welcome for fleets!

It's the other way around (Attack <-> Combat BCs)

And you are right: T1 BCs are really good for their price and will give you the best bang for the buck in terms of dps, utility and links. If you need help with coming up with fits, shout out and I'll dig in my archives, I have over 20 fits for BCs saved on my work laptop. Alternately you can scour my killboard (or the Tuskers one, I pushed the use of t1 BCs a lot in Tuskers lately) for various ideas of fits.

[Xafen Katapi]

Dying to gate guns and getting whelped by a mining fleet...oof!

On a side note, Salty chased our NoP fleet last night for quite a few systems with 8! Confessors. Someday we'll have to have a reship fleet ready that could counter that and blow em up!

[Harai Rex]

Thanks for the fleet Budda!

Regarding my first loss, it was a combination of a momentary lapse in situational awareness with a big dose of bad luck. I was manual piloting around the beacon at the large, keeping a range of 80-100 km and trying to stay unaligned. I made a small mistake with my piloting and flew more or less directly in line between the beacon and Salty.'s home station. At the exact same time I crossed this line, two of the confessors from Salty. warped into the large at range, landing about 20 km away from me. I overheated my MWD and tried to burn away from them, but they were beam fit and likely had SeBos, and killed me in 2 or 3 volleys. Trying to burn away may have been a mistake, as just warping out ASAP might've gotten me out alive.

To be sure, I made a mistake by burning directly between the beacon and a celestial, but if the fessors had warped 5 seconds earlier or later, or I had been burning at a slightly different angle before they landed, I probably would've gotten out. IMO it was a relatively small mistake amplified by some really bad luck.

[Harai Rex]

the inties would need a touch of improvement.

Hah, no argument there.

This is my second pass at a Malediction fit, and I've found it workable, but definitely not perfect. For my next batch of Maledictions, I'm using a new fit (don't worry, I got it from a WINGSPAN member) that swaps the ACs for Light Missiles, the SeBo for a DCU, and upgrades the MWD to T2. I'd also love to hear any suggestions you have to improve the fit.

[Budda Sereda]

Nothing really special, scouts found Thrasher outside of the plex, tackled it, Harai made few scrum passes (nice skill!), and we killed it. The only thing is I assumed we will kill it REALLY quickly so I did not load short range ammo, neither tried to pilot my ship to stay out of range, neither even clicking "Orbit" command. I approached Thrasher. Thanks to Mols and OH my MAAR I survived, but it was close.
Though, that may distracted pilots from warping the capsule off so we killed its capsule too.

(03:19:50) Hikkoken
Thrasher +13.09m
Capsule +20.39m

Tough fight, the Thrasher almost got you all, lol

true, complete lol on myself

Joke aside, what your gang was severely lacking was any kind of anti-support. Beam Omens are terribad at applying to small stuff which makes your gang extremely vulnerable, especially in lowsec. I'm willing to bet this was the main reason you all died in the last fight too.

Besides, that Tornado fit was horrible, the Exequror was meh, and the inties would need a touch of improvement. I don't have access to the fleet announcement threads, but I do hope you have a post with recommended fits. Otherwise, you can dig up some of my old posts, or ask and I can recommend you fits for the ships you're missing. From my experience, you can't trust unistas to come up with their own fits, most of them lack the experience to build one up.

I do my best to post fits in fleets announcements, but I'm flexible to leave pilots option to chose what they want to fly.
Please do advise on how to tune-up ceptors. Same about Exqequror: I've come up with it completely on my own, and ... I assume there is area for improvements.
Harai spoke with his friends and they told that Keres would be a cruicial turning point to a success? I would agree. Better to have a Keres than a 2nd intie i guess..?
I guess Hyenna would be another crucial ship..?

The only small improvement I'll do is that instead of a Combat BC (Oracle) I will try to come up with nano gang fits for Attack BCs: they have additional SRP from E-Uni, are cheaper to fit and require lesser skills. Tornado with ACs could be a good start, but Oracle will be still more than welcome for fleets!

It's the other way around (Attack <-> Combat BCs)

And you are right: T1 BCs are really good for their price and will give you the best bang for the buck in terms of dps, utility and links. If you need help with coming up with fits, shout out and I'll dig in my archives, I have over 20 fits for BCs saved on my work laptop. Alternately you can scour my killboard (or the Tuskers one, I pushed the use of t1 BCs a lot in Tuskers lately) for various ideas of fits.

Agree about Tornado: as I mentioned already, it was not a kiter and even have solid speed is not optimized for kiting.
I do have a reference to your fits Glasi (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 04&t=92059) and trust me I reference it in pretty much EACH announcement about kiting cruisers fleets
If you can add into BCs fits into the one of posts in that topic it would be a great amendment and help many other FCs, not just me.

On this note, I'll have a birthday fleet on this Saturday (at 1900), nano-Phoons, would love if you join and provide in-place feedback on FCing and help us running it. Will you have time? I guess you will figure out the fit for yourself?

Dying to gate guns and getting whelped by a mining fleet...oof!

On a side note, Salty chased our NoP fleet last night for quite a few systems with 8! Confessors. Someday we'll have to have a reship fleet ready that could counter that and blow em up!

Yes, shame. Hopefully we (and many others) learn and improve

Thanks for the fleet Budda!

Regarding my first loss, it was a combination of a momentary lapse in situational awareness with a big dose of bad luck. I was manual piloting around the beacon at the large, keeping a range of 80-100 km and trying to stay unaligned. I made a small mistake with my piloting and flew more or less directly in line between the beacon and Salty.'s home station. At the exact same time I crossed this line, two of the confessors from Salty. warped into the large at range, landing about 20 km away from me. I overheated my MWD and tried to burn away from them, but they were beam fit and likely had SeBos, and killed me in 2 or 3 volleys. Trying to burn away may have been a mistake, as just warping out ASAP might've gotten me out alive.

To be sure, I made a mistake by burning directly between the beacon and a celestial, but if the fessors had warped 5 seconds earlier or later, or I had been burning at a slightly different angle before they landed, I probably would've gotten out. IMO it was a relatively small mistake amplified by some really bad luck.

Sorry for my assumption... should not rush with that.

[Gemma Solett]

I wouldn't mind a bit of critique on my malediction fit, always looking to improve. Fit is pretty much just the uni fleet fit except I put I usually put a nos in when I can remember.

[Glasi Vookto]

I wouldn't mind a bit of critique on my malediction fit, always looking to improve. Fit is pretty much just the uni fleet fit except I put I usually put a nos in when I can remember.

Main thing I don't like on some of those maledictions was the targeting range. Inties have such a low range that they absolutely HAVE to have a targeting rig or mod. The sigamp fits are acceptable, but you're generally better off using a targeting rig instead.

The fitting on the Uni wiki is wrong in that regard, as are all the other interceptor fits there now that I looked at them. Not sure who or how they were chosen, but there was a long forum thread (I think on the LSC forums, i don't have access to that section anymore) where interceptor fittings were debated and I explained very well several reasons why you want a targeting range rig on it and even posted some example fits. Enough to say that with the current fit your point range under links is longer than your targeting range.

Here's my post in the Small Gang thread that includes some reference interceptor fittings: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 59#p788237. It's 3 years old but the fits are still the de-facto standard for interceptors.

Unless you're flying with snakes and/or links, you should have a minimal tank on your inty too, to make sure you can survive light drones for a while. Those no tank maledictions won't cut it.

As a rule when fitting interceptors, you should assume they have no turret hardpoints and fit them according to their purpose: tackle. Once you're satisfied with a fit, if you have spare fitting room you fit a Nos and efter that, if you still have room, you fit guns. Guns on an inty are generally useless for anything other than killing pods or whoring on kills.

Same about Exqequror: I've come up with it completely on my own, and ... I assume there is area for improvements.

The problem with that Exequror fit is that it has no way to regenerate buffer. If it had a buddy that wouldn't be a problem, but solo, once you start taking some damage and are pushed off field, you're pretty much out of the play as you're stuck with low buffer and any further shots you take will take you closer to death. Also the plate+rigs make it very slow for a nano gang with no control.

Here are some fits I found on my computer. I will update my Small gang thread with them as well to provide a starting point.

Spoiler

[Exequror, Exequror - solo logi nano]

Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

Spoiler

[Exequror, Exequror - solo logi dualrep]

IFFA Compact Damage Control
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Medium Armor Repairer II

50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

Spoiler

[Exequror, Exequror - solo logi 800mm plate]

Damage Control II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
800mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Medium Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 400
Alumel-Wired Enduring Sensor Booster

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I


Medium Armor Maintenance Bot I x5

Harai spoke with his friends and they told that Keres would be a cruicial turning point to a success? I would agree. Better to have a Keres than a 2nd intie i guess..?
I guess Hyena would be another crucial ship..?

A damping ship is always a very welcome addition to any small gang, and can be indispensable in some engagements. Depending on situation you ely want one instead of the second inty. On the other hand, if you go roaming deep null and youre only inty dies, you'll wish you brought a second one instead of a Keres .
Hyena can be useful too, but far less than a Keres. In terms of Keres, newer pilots might want to look into the Maulus too. It tends to be less scary than a keres and is a lot cheaper at the expense of not having a bonused point.

If you can add into BCs fits into the one of posts in that topic it would be a great amendment and help many other FCs, not just me.

I will, hopefully today. I also need to revise some of those fits as some stats have changed since I first posted them and I have grown older and wiser and may fit some slightly differently now.

On this note, I'll have a birthday fleet on this Saturday (at 1900), nano-Phoons, would love if you join and provide in-place feedback on FCing and help us running it. Will you have time? I guess you will figure out the fit for yourself?

Will do my best to attend, though I may have practice around that time so I can't promise anything. Ping me ingame an hour or so before? If I come, I'll probably bring a Hyena or Inty, too lazy to stage a BS . You leaving from Stacmon I suppose?

[Gemma Solett]

Thanks for the advice Glasi, I normally do fly MG Snakes but didn't have them for this fleet unfortunately (left them at WHC and keep forgetting to hop back into them). I usually see interceptors with the Ionic field projector so Ill give that a shot.

I have started the train into EAS, so should be flying a Keres within the next couple of weeks, as like others, I have noticed how important damps can be on our nano fleets. I believe on the first one we had Z0X in a Keres and I think he may have been a large factor leading to our success. Guess I'll try to get a bit of practice in with the Maulus beforehand

[Budda Sereda]

Omg, just noticed that Exequror fit was plated, it is not the one I recommended. Yes, plates slow down significantly, don't permit to restore the buffer, and are not for nano gang.

I'll play with ceptor fits, but @Glasi would be great if you share your recommend one as comparatively to one on wiki you will need to sacrifice agility for targeting range. Should then armor plating module be replaced with the nano fiber?

[Mols Halleck]

My reasoning for going with a plate this time was that the repper had made almost no difference in the amount of time I could stay on the field after being primaried on the first nano roam. For this roam I didn't have much trouble keeping range and staying alive until the last engagement, where for some reason I thought that warping at 0 was a good idea, but I can understand the reason for a plate being a bad idea. I will try one of the posted fits for the next time, maybe the dual rep one.

[Glasi Vookto]

I'll play with ceptor fits, but @Glasi would be great if you share your recommend one as comparatively to one on wiki you will need to sacrifice agility for targeting range. Should then armor plating module be replaced with the nano fiber?

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are reference interceptor fits listed in my SGT thread here: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... =0#p788237
The Malediction fit there has 2 nanos, but if you feel you want more tank, you can use a ANM instead of the second nano. As a note though, you don't have the cap to perma run the AAR and run your MWD and point, so most often you have to pull range or warp off, rep up, then go back in.

My reasoning for going with a plate this time was that the repper had made almost no difference in the amount of time I could stay on the field after being primaried on the first nano roam. For this roam I didn't have much trouble keeping range and staying alive until the last engagement, where for some reason I thought that warping at 0 was a good idea, but I can understand the reason for a plate being a bad idea. I will try one of the posted fits for the next time, maybe the dual rep one.

Your reasoning was ok, when there's a lot of dps on field, a plate fit may be preferred over a single rep fit. However, you should always go for plate+repper on a solo logi. The repper isn't there to keep you up against overwhelming dps, it's mostly to top you up when you warp off, so you can come back into the fight with full buffer. Without a rep, a single flight of light drones can take you out of the fight for good given time.

[Budda Sereda]

As I mentioned in my previous post, there are reference interceptor fits listed in my SGT thread here: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... =0#p788237
The Malediction fit there has 2 nanos, but if you feel you want more tank, you can use a ANM instead of the second nano. As a note though, you don't have the cap to perma run the AAR and run your MWD and point, so most often you have to pull range or warp off, rep up, then go back in.

What is ANM? I assume Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane?
2nd nano increases agility, but I feel for newer pilots extra tank is more important.

For me, SAAR on a Malediction is just another bit of extra buffer... plus an ability to rep damage while in warp.

Updated fleet-up/wiki.

Thanks!

[Entriri Crendraven]

What is ANM? I assume Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane?
2nd nano increases agility, but I feel for newer pilots extra tank is more important.

For me, SAAR on a Malediction is just another bit of extra buffer... plus an ability to rep damage while in warp.

Updated fleet-up/wiki.

Thanks!

Energized adaptive membrane, and adaptive nano membrane are Two different mod's.
Speed and sig are your tank.
I think without inty V dropping to a single nano for an ANM is a viable alternative. Just make sure the inty pilots remember they don't need to hold grid they just need to last long enough for heavy tackle when under the gun. living tackle is better than dead tackle