[FLEET] Ninazu has strong reps

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Budda Sereda
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[FLEET] Ninazu has strong reps

Post by Budda Sereda »

I was preparing for this fleet for quite a few months (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=107703 and https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=108697) and wanted to make it fun. My original plan was to go into space where Pandemic Horde leaves. Usually they undock quite a bit BC fleet and try to snipe them from range using fly-by tactics (https://wiki.agony-unleashed.com/index. ... ers_in_PvP - interesting tactics, must be known by any FC BTW).

For different reasons (first E-Uni Cup tournament, seconds vacation in Kamela) my fleet was delayed... and PH moved out. :(

So instead, I thought about having an arranged fight. I spoke with Spectre FCs and one of them agreed to. I intentionally called for the fleet on the weekend so both EU and US TZ players can join expecting solid turnaround. Many thanks to all of you it was decent: almost 40 pilots, 13 in BS, decent logy squad (including T2), proper support ships. Everything looked cool, but ... as it was supposed to be a fair fight I shared numbers with Spectre FC: they were in T1 CR and BC and did not have even our numbers. That's very strange: yesterday I was in a fleet with 70+ pilots and expected Spectre will form decent fleet today.

Anyway, after some wasted time, we decided to go roaming separately. We could join forces, but they had shields, and other reasons, so we went roaming through low to nul.

First scouts caught Gila in Eugales. While BSs caught with us, Gila pilot decided to self-destruct, but we still landed on a kill :)

(18:51:50) Eugales
Gila +231.26m

Looks like Zana was trying to catch-up with fleet, but was caught in OST:
Augoror -27.1m

Scouts found some content in NeN (Caracals fleet), but it was hot so not everybody landed in kill and many Caracals run away:
Vexor -28.33m
Vexor Navy Issue +96.18m
Caracal +20.65m
Caracal +36.61m

At this moment I got intel from SF FC about the fleet of Vindis with Nenazu in Vli. He was skeptical we can break it and advised to double boosh one and kill. But we only had 1 CD. I probably should not have taken that call and moved on, but I was skeptical about long roaming and as content was nearby thought: we don't we try.
Plus comms on fleet was cheering for that. The main idea was: we have 13 BSs, each of them expected to have 2 heavy neuts, maybe that will give enough pressure to prevent it from repping...?

Those folks were flashy and sitting in Vli on Ald gate, we jumped, tried to shoot Vindi, switched primary, added heat, closed distance, nothing really worked: we did not have enough DPS to break them. At some point, we noticed Spectre Fleet landed on us and joined the party, they were breaking Devoter, so we switched to it. Ninazu was holding, we switched primary, but Devoter still went down.

Early in the fight, I was going to pull range and once safe disengage, but logies were holding so we stood on grid and tried to break things.

At some point, I heard we started bleeding... not sure why..? Maybe we just came closer? When I was almost ready to give up somebody on comms called: let's try to break Ninazu. We did, it was breaking slowly... to slowly... and at that moment we had too low numbers. I called to align to planet 1, OH prop modes,... and saved only logies :)

(19:22:17) Vlillirier, Ostingele
Magus -107.72m
Devoter +458.61m
Tempest -225.42m
Vexor -20.06m
Vexor -25.65m
Megathron -254.35m
Punisher -12.3m
Tempest -210.23m
Vexor -39.57m
Machariel -602.98m
Tempest -219.98m
Thorax -34.34m
Purifier -51.38m
Megathron -247.71m
Tempest -216.68m
Vexor -23.92m
Tempest -227.46m
Tempest -235.61m
Tempest -227.66m
Tempest -220.66m
Tempest -221.84m
Tempest -217.22m
Merlin +10.23m
Tempest -214.27m

ISK Destroyed: 853,529,715.24
ISK Lost: 3,912,509,058.96
ISK Delta: -3,058,979,343.72
Efficiency: 17.909%

Was interesting fight, very ISK negative, but VERY emotionally positive.

Don't get me wrong: I don't feel happy for whelping the fleet, but we all understood that chance we are going to come back is low.

Looking into the killboard, I learned that the same gang was engaged by Muninns... and left alive. Seriously? Is this so easy to keep Ninazu alive?

What went well?

1. Logies: you were amazing - no loses, all alive, and tons of reps on the fleet. Good job!
2. Special thanks to Laser: I'm sure it is you who made logies so successful. Thanks for organizing the logy wing!
3. Apparently, finding fight was not so hard. Scouts also reported the squad of 20 Muninns roaming in Black Rise, but we lost eyes on them...

What could be better?

1. I probably should have held myself and tried to find a better fight.
2. Another improvement: I should know better what it takes to kill a Ninazu or break its reps. Looking now on killboard and typical fits... :( it was a stupid idea to try breaking it with 20 DDs, even with BSs. It can self-rep 26k EHP until it runs out of cap boosters (which I expect it had many, plus some in BSs cargo to spare when needed). It can rep around 6k HP/s, which is at around 15k EHP/s for repping normally tanked BSs, plus it can send cap...
Together with Spectre folks, we had a slight chance of breaking BSs, but not Ninazu. And once we started bleeding we should have run out.

Anyway, thanks to all for coming out. Hope you guys did enjoy it and in any case, please do let me know how did I perform as FC and what I could do better. Feel free to either post in topic or fill-in the FCC form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... rm?c=0&w=1

P.S. Now I'm thinking if we can pull something similar: have a BSs fleet with a FAX and kill what's coming through. Yes, it would be even more expensive, but unless we will be ganked, we can pull it. And even if we are ganked, we can have a counter gang... let me know what you think guys :)

P.P.S. And if you are not frustrated losing a BS once a month please do join my birthday fleet: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=108793 - Nano-phoons roaming.
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Alexander Oromov
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Alexander Oromov »

Thanks everyone for fleet.

-> I'm also interested to get some input from Logistics and BS pilots. We were holding for a long time and started to break down massively once we switched to the Ninazu. Was it range? Did we really hold before?

-> I was surprised we didn't go for the Ninazu right from start. Yes, it's a slow process, but applying DPS through Ninazu reps on potentially shiny Vindicators with links support is very tough!

-> During the fleet I tried to contact the Caracal fleet to sync targets, but all of their pilots declined the conversation, unfortunately.

It was a nice fight though and hope everyone had their fun in our great BS fleet.
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Drake Shea »

Great fleet, thank for giving unistas the opportunity to undock in the cooler ships in new eden
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Gigabyte Ghekon
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Gigabyte Ghekon »

Fleet was loads of fun, I finally got to lose my bomber, after dodging super carriers and dreads in null and interdictor gatecamps in low it took me focusing on shooting vindis and forgetting to broadcast for reps to finally lose it. Shame i never got to launch my void bombs :D
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Laser Skaron
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Laser Skaron »

First off, I am sad that I did not fly a Guardian (very sad :( ).

Was really really nice that we found content quickly and didn't spend too much time wondering around.
Alexander Oromov wrote: -> I'm also interested to get some input from Logistics and BS pilots. We were holding for a long time and started to break down massively once we switched to the Ninazu. Was it range? Did we really hold before?
The reason why we were holding for a long time was that they had problems applying to our smaller ships. We could keep Vexors up quite easily, hell we kept 1 Purifier up for aaages. But overall they out DPSed us quite easily. When they started shooting Tempests and we saw we can't do much about that I kinda knew the fight was over and tried to communicate that. Logi was always in range to rep during that fight, if not too close (~35 km).

In my opinion, we called for an extraction about 3-4 minutes too late. First instinct that we were losing the fight kicked in when we lost NotA's Megathron super fast. Apparently that was around 19:24. I was certain that we were losing when I saw tempests dropping very easily at around 19:29. We started extraction at around 19:31-19:32. Should have realized a bit earlier than that, based on the ratio of target broadcasts vs rep broadcasts that we weren't going to make it.

Comms were super chaotic during the fight, especially when we started debating how to boosh off something, along with the fleet. Wether that maneuver was correct doesn't matter, but we "argued" for 30-60 seconds on comms, during which I head no target calls and assumed that most fleet members were on their own doing stuff.

Our logi anchor had dropped fleet at some point so I did the thing I keep saying I shouldn't do (both anchor and call as an LC). That workload was significantly improved at some point when I offloaded part of the target calling to Erwin (I think?? Not certain it was him. Just looked at my watch list and picked a random name there). I'm super happy with how that went. Said: "Look at the broadcast window and call when there's a new target". That did wonders for my focus and I'm going to use that from now on more often, even though it was a bit late in the fight.
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Irrilian »

Thanks for leading the feet and to Laser Skaron to organising the logi.

What was the eventual outcome of the poorly secured FAX?
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Laser Skaron »

Irrilian wrote:Thanks for leading the feet and to Laser Skaron to organising the logi.

What was the eventual outcome of the poorly secured FAX?
The poorly secured thing was a citadel and was an interesting fact but unrelated to the fleet, that someone in fleet had access to a nearby neutral structure and could take control of it. The FAX was a capital logistics ship on the opposing side of the engagement.
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

I see only 1 command destroyer with 1 T1 link which was the first primary and died. So I think you needed a larger support wing, if not command ships, then tanky T1 battlecruisers.

I might have tried to get the basic t1 stuff first and maybe the macheriel as it would have lost a low slot in the update so bad in an armor fleet.

They had several command ships on the field probably providing a full range of links.
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Gerrik Aldent
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Gerrik Aldent »

Thanks for fleet Budda! Fleet was very well run and content was great. I do have to admit I was the one dumb enough to bring a Mach. :)
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Biwako Acami »

Enjoyed the first BS roam I've been to since joining E-UNI. Thanks for running it.

Some feedback & questions:
  • As a BS fleet I felt like we were too eager to engage on smaller ships while roaming. Edit: Maybe a little briefing on what to look for and what is engage-able while idling before we headed out might have been good.
  • As the Huginn pilot I mostly focused on bringing targets to a halt. At the BS engagement I tried to hold the Vindicators down to prevent them from repositioning for optimals but when Spectre fleet arrived I wasn't sure of their intentions and started following the logi wing to provide screening.
  • I'm curious about the Vindicators DPS and positioning after that. Did they tackle our battleships and pull into appropriate range to apply?
  • Were we working with SpectreFleet to get the FAX supported BS fleet down? We didn't receive any indication on Comms but it looks like we had the same goals.
  • Also it might be better to put in a tailored battle report instead of individual ships for a fleet engagement.
Just a humble scout
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helioswipe moondraft
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by helioswipe moondraft »

Budda Sereda wrote:When I was almost ready to give up somebody on comms called: let's try to break Ninazu. We did, it was breaking slowly... to slowly... and at that moment we had too low numbers.
Most likely the ninazu was doing this on purpose, to bait you guys in staying there. The alpha damage from your fleet doesn't really threaten a ninazu.
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Tye Etch »

Thanks for Fleet Budda, and Laser for Logi Commander.
Laser Skaron wrote:First off, I am sad that I did not fly a Guardian (very sad :( ).

Was really really nice that we found content quickly and didn't spend too much time wondering around.

...

Our logi anchor had dropped fleet at some point so I did the thing I keep saying I shouldn't do (both anchor and call as an LC). That workload was significantly improved at some point when I offloaded part of the target calling to Erwin (I think?? Not certain it was him. Just looked at my watch list and picked a random name there). I'm super happy with how that went. Said: "Look at the broadcast window and call when there's a new target". That did wonders for my focus and I'm going to use that from now on more often, even though it was a bit late in the fight.
Sorry I would have volunteered to give anchor a try but wasn't sure if I could make the whole fleet, didn't want to add the confusion if I had to drop as well.

I was wondering your thoughts on if the logi were in Guardians if we would be able to apply enough reps to sustain the battleships? Maybe an idea for next time, plus logi don't get to fly enough blingy ships!
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Laser Skaron »

Tye Etch wrote:I was wondering your thoughts on if the logi were in Guardians if we would be able to apply enough reps to sustain the battleships?
We would have had 2 Guardians at undock, most likely not enough reps. I'm sad about "no Guardian" 'cause I wanted it, not for practical reasons. Full wing of Guardians, no clue, technically I've never flown them...
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Budda Sereda »

Gigabyte Ghekon wrote:Fleet was loads of fun, I finally got to lose my bomber, after dodging super carriers and dreads in null and interdictor gatecamps in low it took me focusing on shooting vindis and forgetting to broadcast for reps to finally lose it. Shame i never got to launch my void bombs :D
bombers should not broadcast for reps. Stay aligned out and warp out as soon as you are yellow boxed.
Laser wrote:Was really really nice that we found content quickly and didn't spend too much time wandering around.
Heh... I'm glad you mentioned this. Though, I'm not sure this is good enough justification for whelping the fleet.
Laser wrote:In my opinion, we called for an extraction about 3-4 minutes too late. First instinct that we were losing the fight kicked in when we lost NotA's Megathron super fast. Apparently that was around 19:24. I was certain that we were losing when I saw tempests dropping very easily at around 19:29. We started extraction at around 19:31-19:32. Should have realized a bit earlier than that, based on the ratio of target broadcasts vs rep broadcasts that we weren't going to make it.
Thanks Laser, would be great to fly with your more often, or at least with the same Logy Commander to have a chance to learn each other.
Not that I did not trust, but first time when the bell rang I wanted to probe few more things. And when it was really a time to go we got an idea to try Ninazu.
Now, with aftermath I did, it is obvious we better not have even tried. Yet, many people called for it, and... why did we undock if we did not even do what we'd like to do? Even if that is not really reasonable? :) For once in a while?
Laser wrote:Comms were super chaotic during the fight, especially when we started debating how to boosh off something, along with the fleet. Wether that maneuver was correct doesn't matter, but we "argued" for 30-60 seconds on comms, during which I head no target calls and assumed that most fleet members were on their own doing stuff.
Let me disagree here.
I admit, we had quite a lot of freedom in comms, but messages were clear, instructions and primaries too. It looks it appeared to be the problem that people were not broadcasting for reps. I guess that is something they should learn: listen to comms, but watch the grid and overview.
Laser wrote:Our logi anchor had dropped fleet at some point so I did the thing I keep saying I shouldn't do (both anchor and call as an LC). That workload was significantly improved at some point when I offloaded part of the target calling to Erwin (I think?? Not certain it was him. Just looked at my watch list and picked a random name there). I'm super happy with how that went. Said: "Look at the broadcast window and call when there's a new target". That did wonders for my focus and I'm going to use that from now on more often, even though it was a bit late in the fight.
Could you please speak more on this? Do you have a practice of calling who is a primary reps as LC?
Biwako wrote:I'm curious about the Vindicators DPS and positioning after that. Did they tackle our battleships and pull into appropriate range to apply?
They had webs, and points, did not notice scrams. Not sure if they managed distance, looks like it was not needed.
Biwako wrote:Were we working with SpectreFleet to get the FAX supported BS fleet down? We didn't receive any indication on Comms but it looks like we had the same goals.
Yes, though I admit we did not coordinate well enough.

Many thanks to all for positive feedback and support.
TBH, I am sad I whelped 4B worth of ships. The big part of that will come with insurance, yet... I agree with another comment (which I already wrote in the original post) that looks like we were too eager to fight anything.

P.S. I feel like in May I will call for T2 cruisers fleet, though @Laser: most likely that will be shield one, armor would be too slow.
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Re: [FLEET] Long waiting BSs

Post by Budda Sereda »

One more thing I would like to bring into the discussion: Command Destroyers operation in big fights.

Command Destroyers in fights like this most likely are going to be primaried and will die very fast. So I would say they should not decloak early in a fight, and after decloaked, unless they have a specific mission they should stay at range.
As an option, they can warp to tactical. If you don't have tactical, bounce to any celestial and make a BM on the grid at few thousand kilometers from the fight, come back to this BM.
Another option would be to pull 40-60 km range and keep shooting (so they land on kill-mail), but that is dangerous if the opponent has ceptors as most likely they are going to still primary it, shut MWD, and wait while it is killed. In this case, CD pilot should scram ceptor back and ask FC if he can clean the ceptor.
Even better would be to ask FC before fleet how does he want CD to operate. Not that I would advise something really cool, but is good to ask.
Let me admit: this does not remove my responsibility to give instructions on what I would like CD to do.

All this sounds like pilots flying CDs won't land on many kills until the end, but I guess that's peculiarities of their role: support, but not shoot.

2Gemma: personal thank you for keep flying them and trying to learn how to fly them well. Keep trying, at some point you will master it!
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