[AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

User avatar
Ulrik Elristan
Member
Member
Posts: 217
Joined: 2014.04.30 08:21
Title: Ensign, Sad About A Title, Rock Real Estate Broker, da Explorah, Graduate
Location: Innuendo

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Ulrik Elristan »

K950 wrote:Like other attempts before it, it was a failure.

Not this time.
K950 wrote:fully PvP fit.
I'm sorry what ?
K950 wrote:however, it does also come down to "How much do you trust the FC?"
K950 wrote:This will be discussed in depth when the AAR comes out ... Next Week!
Still waiting, why no drakes then ? I'd like to read your thought process. If at all possible, not in thesis format.
K950 wrote:Half an hour for a formup sounds like long forump time for me.
K950 wrote:Swift and potent will be the motto of the fleet.
K950 wrote: the answer would be to use battleships, ideally with a tank bonus, combined with triage carriers
FAXes* and not triage carriers (for the sake of consistency), and then why did you not take a battleship with a tank bonus ?
K950 wrote:It was a good thing the system was close because battleships are slow to maneuver around, which is one problem of the doctrine, but there's nothing that can be feasibliy done about it.
Yes, yes there is. Have people get the ship beforehand and move it to a staging area out of the War Targets' way on their own, with an alt like everybody else.
K950 wrote:In this warmup, I left one thing out: to prime the Reactive Armor Hardeners.
That wouldn't have made much of a difference, as when you're not being shot at the RAH resets to balanced resists.
K950 wrote:soured the image of not only myself but also these FOBs
I'm sure the FOBs don't care whatsoever.
K950 wrote:Formup was reasonably fast
K950 wrote:I was the last on grid with the disaster, and I thought it was fitting that I was the last to perish
Vane.
K950 wrote:I didn't want to clutter the AAR with too much talk. AARs that are five pages long tend to be ignored.
I'm sorry what ? On both statements : what ?
K950 wrote:Hardeners - because of neuting pressure
OK, so you're using RR battleships. If you're running out of cap, you're dead in the first place. Use hardeners.
K950 wrote:I feel that most of the constructive criticism was rather coarse: as I mentioned earlier, people really haven't had much positive to say in this thread (aside from Zeerse), so if all people do is snipe, what obligation do I have to respond to it?
The same obligation they have to contain themselves, which they have so far pretty well done, all things considered.
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” - Sun Tzu.


May enter novel-writing mode at any time. Beware of the walls of text !
User avatar
Azmodeus Valar
Retired Director
Retired Director
Posts: 2542
Joined: 2007.09.27 03:21
Title: Director of Finance

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Azmodeus Valar »

The point of a good aar is to provide information, along with what was learned from the experience.

Unfortunately, part of that process will be criticism, which by it's nature is hard to hear. Some people will have positive feedback, which is great, but not as useful for improvement.

Negative feedback or suggestions for future fleets can be useful, but I strongly suggest that aar writers not respond for a day or two after writing. It gives time for increased perspective, as well as time for emotional responses to decrease a bit on all sides.

All that being said, it seemed like a good initiative to provide content that has room for improvement in the future. Parts of the planning, formup, and execution can be tweaked for further runs.
Former:
Image
User avatar
Decklin Quark Reiger
Member
Member
Posts: 508
Joined: 2016.04.21 16:24
Title: LSC Combat Officer, Fittings staff, Lieutenant Junior Grade, Graduate

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

In terms of learning from this event, even in K950 isn't interested in hearing it, there's a very valuable lesson to take from this.

When an FC plans something, and they choose to make a trade-off that negatively impacts the group as a whole, in favour of the potential for personal gain, it'll have a tendency to go sour pretty quickly in terms of the relationships with other people in the group. I personally chose not to participate after learning that the reason K950 wouldn't share the fits in advance was he didn't want someone else to steal his thunder by doing the event before him, using his idea. Not only that, but if someone else in the Uni had done so, that he would have cancelled his event because there would no longer be any point.

So, positives from this 'trade-off'
- K950 was the first Uni FC to kill one of the FOB structures. Op success I guess, in terms of the FC's stated goal.

Negatives from this 'trade-off':
- Form up time was unnecessarily prolonged by having to take the whole fleet in to Jita together, and fly out in battleships.
- Cost of the ships was unnecessarily increased because people couldn't buy the fits in advance using buy orders or bringing a ship that they had already obtained (like from the free battleship that CCP gave out a while ago).
- There was a missed opportunity for collective planning and teamwork, in terms of what ships and tactics to use for the event.

Other potential things to learn from the FOB events that would be interesting to learn:
- how do the NPC escalation mechanics work? ie - do the rats spawn on a fixed timer, or are there triggers in place?
- If the fleet's damage is applied quickly and efficiently to priority targets, does that reduce the amount of tank and reps that we need to bring?
- Would a tactic where one or two people are designated to kill rats that use ECM / Neuts be useful?
- Would a shield-based tank give higher resistances, as well as higher damage output from the fleet?
Image
User avatar
Titus Tallang
Retired Director
Retired Director
Posts: 2485
Joined: 2013.01.21 15:28
Title: Director of Special Projects, Teacher, Puella Magi

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Titus Tallang »

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:I personally chose not to participate after learning that the reason K950 wouldn't share the fits in advance was he didn't want someone else to steal his thunder by doing the event before him, using his idea. Not only that, but if someone else in the Uni had done so, that he would have cancelled his event because there would no longer be any point.
Wait, what?
*creak*
User avatar
Jeracho Dorne
Member
Member
Posts: 371
Joined: 2016.03.29 19:08
Title: Personnel Officer, Mentor, Graduate

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Jeracho Dorne »

Just to bring a different perspective to this if I may.

By not sharing the fit in advance and a stage system you discouraged those who aren't skilled to fly every type of BS which I assume in the Uni is quite a high percentage. As it turned out I would have been fine to fly the Doctrine, however i didn't know that until the fleet started, so didn't want to commit to something I couldn't join in with. Propper prior preparation prevents poor performance seems relevent here and is key to success in Eve.
Last edited by Jeracho Dorne on 2018.02.26 18:40, edited 1 time in total.
Graduate


Retired - Finance Manager - Assistant Diplomacy Manager - Low Sec Campus Manager LSC - Senior Personnel Officer - Solitude Campus Officer - Communication Officer
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Hirmuolio Pine
Member
Member
Posts: 406
Joined: 2014.08.05 12:50
Title: Wiki Curator, Graduate

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Hirmuolio Pine »

@Ulrik Elristan

RAH don't reset their resist. The resists shift only if you receive damage. If you decycle the module the resist will shift back to default.
User avatar
Ulrik Elristan
Member
Member
Posts: 217
Joined: 2014.04.30 08:21
Title: Ensign, Sad About A Title, Rock Real Estate Broker, da Explorah, Graduate
Location: Innuendo

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Ulrik Elristan »

My bad then :) Still wouldn't have been the deciding factor for success here, though.
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” - Sun Tzu.


May enter novel-writing mode at any time. Beware of the walls of text !
User avatar
Ersin Oghuz
Member
Member
Posts: 1333
Joined: 2016.03.04 16:24
Title: Campus Manager (HSC), Caw Caw, Ensign, Teacher, Graduate, Management

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Ersin Oghuz »

Let's step back and consider how we can communicate efficiently so our message is delivered to the other side. We can be firm but let's keep it polite.

I was not in K950's fleets due to my chaotic RL so I will comment what I read so far (and yes I read the 1st report and this one too even I did not attend or gave feedback). I do not consider myself a full capable FC and I have so much to learn (ships and fits, etc), but I think as a member of a FCC program (and considering myself as an emerging FC :P ) I can give some constructive feedback about those fleets since I am not stranger to both PvP and PvE fleets and FOBs.

- K950 organized the event and chosed not to reveal the plans beforehand due to reasons, it is not ideal yes, but still, hammering him down for it, is not ideal too. Yes, revealing doctrine is very good practice for both having people getting ready and for getting feedback so you can make it better, but it is organizer's choice at the end and being part of such fleet is yours.
- K950, you dismissed the advices even they have some solid points. You could at least reveal your target (pvp or pve) beforehand so people could come with true expectations that can be met by the fleet. You are good guy, but dismissing feedback and not revealing the content (either PvP or PvE) is a crucial mistake and if I am reading this correctly you did this not once, but twice, even after the feedback from the first fleet.
- The whole thing can be managed better. Too much negative critics about FCs decision not to reveal the doctrine, probably put K950 into defensive position which lead him dismiss the negative comments which lead us to this clash of comments. This could be managed much better, from both sides.
- K950, I was not in that fleet, so I did not hear what you said, but if you reasoning of not revealing the doctrine is "preventing others (corporation members) to take it and use it before you" I can say that is a very poor choice of words at least. "Trust no one in New Eden" can work really good while you are sorting your foreign relations (out of corporation relations), but not trusting your fellow corporation members is a problematic approach.

As a side note, in HSC we are still interested in those FOBs and reliable doctrines, so we are still in business for these content, so I believe this AAR will show us how to and how not to deal with issues and FOBs so we can do better next time.

Regards.
"In Blasters I Trust"

Image
ImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImageImage
User avatar
Gerrik Aldent
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: 2017.12.10 21:17

Re: [AAR] 8D02 Reverse Thought

Post by Gerrik Aldent »

Having participated in the first attempt (sadly schedule restraints meant I had to leave afterward) K950 did a good job as an FC, while his motives might have been a bit off for not sharing the fit beforehand I, and I believe most people, had fun either trying to or killing these things. So K950 were not out to get you so next time be a little forthcoming when it comes to fleet info , but overall great fleet!
Image
Locked