[AAR] 8C12 Aftermath

[B'aldrick Aivoras]

Thanks K950 for organising content - content is king but knowledge is power!

I hear the need for a degree of secrecy but in this case I think it led to a sub-optimal outcome so it would be hard to judge the composition etc as i think we forgot the human factors needed to succeed in the mission.

I joined late (RL) etc. I like to PvP and thought this was going to be a PvP fleet. I haven't flown logi more than a couple of times. Why? I don't enjoy it. Maybe I should fly it more as I can see the attraction in saving my fleet mates from the jaws of death. I did step up to logi despite this and ended up with logi command with Decklin helping (thanks once again).

Therein, lies my first feeling that I want to share. Mentally being prepared for what is expected helps - I hoped we would have a single target (or a few) that would allow time for me to get used to repping and switching as needed. I was hoping to learn on the job so to speak - I understand the principles needed for cap chain and staggering reps (and reps landing at the end of the cycle for armour) but getting smooth and efficient takes practice. I failed in this. The rats switched too quick for me to respond. I didn't broadcast for reps before I went down (I did the first time I think) as has been mentioned as Decklin called it out in logi comms so another thing to learn

The comment about experienced logi pilots from the Incursion community is a good one I think.

You kindly gave me a ship that could've been useful for PvP but wasn't doctrine. as it wasn't explicit that specific fits were required as we were looking for predictable engagements and resists. I thought it would be ok. Again I failed to appreciate the mission objective and failed to respond appropriately. Sorry.

Would I come on a fleet to achieve killing a FOB again - ofc.
I'd fly DD though!

Summary - you did a great job preparing for this overall but I think preparing your fleet members is important as well too o7



Here's my recording of my demise!!

https://youtu.be/rplgeG6KlZQ

[Cassiel Seraphim]

So I went and camped the belts with my Vargur.
...
The ♦ Caracals hit with kinetic missiles while the ♦ Gilas hit with thermal missiles.

Those (miner response teams) are different rats in the database, don't lump them together with the Forward Operation Base rats, they are not the same.

In the run WHC did with HSC I saw in my own logs that they were all (caracals, gilas and kestrels) doing thermal damage (found my old post) and there was no split of damage types. They were all lobbing Dread Guristas missiles, all doing thermal damage (although different size of missiles).

Last I checked in the database I found 4 entries for ♦ Caracal NPCs and they were all quite different; different resists, used four different type of missiles etc. CCP might have iterated on the Forward Operation Bases since then, but just because you saw other Caracals in different events or settings doesn't mean much.

[Hirmuolio Pine]

Yeah they are different rats. That mistake almost cost me my dear Vargur since I neglected non thermal resists.

The ♦ ships by the way have almost exactly same stats as faction fit T1 ships. Close enough that an implant or one missing skill would get you the exact same stats except for range/application.

For example this ♦ Condor has pretty much identical stats to this fit with all V (except the Guristas condor gets missile application bonus from nowhere).

Spoiler

[Condor, Condor]
Damage Control II
Micro Auxiliary Power Core I

Dread Guristas Warp Scrambler
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Medium Shield Extender II
1MN Afterburner II

Rocket Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Rocket
[empty high slot]

Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Auxiliary Thrusters II
Small Auxiliary Thrusters I

And this ♦ Gila has almost exactly same stats as this Gila fit (except it gets bnonuses from larger ammount of guidance computers taht can fit).

Spoiler

[Gila, GuristaGila]
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

10MN Afterburner II
Dread Guristas Adaptive Invulnerability Field
Dread Guristas EM Ward Field
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II
Large Shield Extender II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Dread Guristas Inferno Heavy Missile
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Of course the stats on that site may not always be correct if CCP changes them. Or if there are multiple rats with same name. But this should give some estimation on how strong they are.

[Ersin Oghuz]

Can I ask a question? How you come up with NPC fits ? Any protocol you are using?

[Cassiel Seraphim]

Or if there are multiple rats with same name.

If you re-read my post, you'll notice I specifically said there were.

Last I checked in the database I found 4 entries for ♦ Caracal NPCs and they were all quite different; different resists, used four different type of missiles etc. CCP might have iterated on the Forward Operation Bases since then, but just because you saw other Caracals in different events or settings doesn't mean much.

So yes, there are multiple ships with the same name. This is not exclusive to Caracals, there are multiples for most ♦-type ships, for belt response ships, FOBs and apparently other type of response fleets too. All with slightly or drastically different stats.

[K950]

Can I ask a question? How you come up with NPC fits ? Any protocol you are using?

Secrets.

[White 0rchid]

I sense a disturbance in the force.

[Ersin Oghuz]

Can I ask a question? How you come up with NPC fits ? Any protocol you are using?

Secrets.

Ah OK, for a second there, I thought we are in learning corporation. Sorry about my rudeness.

[K950]

Can I ask a question? How you come up with NPC fits ? Any protocol you are using?

Secrets.

Ah OK, for a second there, I thought we are in learning corporation. Sorry about my rudeness.

I was merely trolling you. You look up the typeID then reverse-generate the fit from the stats.

Pine, I think you are pretty close. I think these rats are, in select cases, being granted certain modules that don't exist. The Gila can't possibly fit its Dread Guristas ECM module with those guidance comps; not just because of CPU reasons alone but also there's not enough mids. I concur on the Condor as well.

Quite a number of those fits, like the Bhaalgorn, are simply terrible.

[Cassiel Seraphim]

Pine, I think you are pretty close. I think these rats are, in select cases, being granted certain modules that don't exist. The Gila can't possibly fit its Dread Guristas ECM module with those guidance comps; not just because of CPU reasons alone but also there's not enough mids. I concur on the Condor as well.

NPCs do not have modules at all, they merely have attributes. Any mechanics that simulate modules turning off or being restricted somehow is added onto that layer of attributes. That's why NPCs do not behave like player ships when it comes to some EWAR or when it comes to capacitor capacity.

If I recall correctly CCP said they started using pyfa/EFT to fit ships much like players do, then simply extract the values to get a decent baseline for a ship, then tinker with those values for balance issues. Just to speed up the process of adding more or updating NPCs for new or revised content. But at the end of the day, NPC ships do not have modules or even a module-simulation going. Just attributes and chance-based variables for their actions.

[K950]

They can be neuted out. The new ones.

[Cassiel Seraphim]

They can be neuted out. The new ones.

It's possible CCP are adding more and more simulations for that, but do you have any proof of that? How did people come to that conclusion? People in EVE say a whole bunch of things and assume a ton on top of that based on sketchy experiences that turn out to be wishful thinking or circumstance rather than fact more often than not. I'd like to see the source for that if you happen to have it

[Cassiel Seraphim]

Also, to clarify ... I think you can technically empty their cap, but that does nothing because NPCs don't use cap for anything (they don't have actual modules, like I pointed out before). So you cannot neut them out in the sense that it stops them from using any of their "modules".

But as I said in my first post, if you have any proof of this having changed, I'd love to see it.

[K950]

They seem to have "bottomless" capacitor, whereby you don't get updated messages indicating how much you've drained. However, they can be neuted out, as seen here:



Here, you can see armor loss on the Slashers because I neuted the reps out on the Scythe. You can also see that the tackle has shut off on 2 of the 3 Slashers.

I tested today, and you can't shut off their ABs or AIFs.

[Cassiel Seraphim]

NPCs have various attributes that could also explain that behaviour.

For example, lots of NPCs have actual %-age chances of landing their EWAR or even reps, meaning they don't have 100% upkeep on their points, webs, reps etc. Repairing NPCs also have various attributes adding %-age chances of repairing, damage thresholds above which they simply won't rep (meaning they won't rep until they dip low enough), limits of the number of ships they rep per cycle (if more people take damage, they won't rep all of them). That's just mentioning a few pertinent variables that simulate things.

In order to make any kind of statement as to how these new rats work, you'll need to establish a baseline first.

For points/webs for example, allow yourself to be pointed and webbed for a long period of time and see if they intermittently drop all by themselves (indicating a %-age based chance) or if you stay perma-webbed or pointed (or scrammed). For armour reps, the same, you need to put pressure on enemies to see whether the scythes repair consistently or if there's similar %-age based chances here, or certain thresholds that needs to be reached before they repair etc.

Personally I start by getting the typeID from the enemies (think the easiest way is to copy the lines from the overview or directional scanner, as the first number shown is the typeID, then grab the stats from the database (easily done through ESI these days) to see said thresholds, chances and other attributes that easily explains their behaviour. Then you can verify those numbers ingame by predicting their behaviour. But however you do it, you need to establish a baseline, otherwise you run the risk of making assumptions based off of less than typical randomness.