[AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

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Sturym
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[AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Sturym »

Spoiler
Bob Kuvora - Tackle
Calder Ormand - 2IC/Anchor/DD
Crimson Herring - Scout
Dunbartian Wonderwood - DD
Genwhi Thellere - Logi
Hillybilly Hinken - DD
Kirsid Tannaway - EWAR
Mols Halleck - Logi
Raxon Noseworthy - DD
Sturym - FC
Yuri Levnik - Logi FC
This fleet... did not go as planned. I feel like we did our best to make our SP time, but as usual, we undocked a few minutes late. We manuvered the fleet through the Y9G and on to Elore. Quiet for the most part, Crimson broke comms and reported Filthy Peasants / Arson Industries had people in Elore. Knowing that they tend to escalte unnecessarily, we weighed options. We pressed on into Elore and moved to the Anckee gate while Crimson +1'd into Anckee. Almost immediately, Crimson reported a Hyperion on gate in Anckee. While holding on the Anckee gate in Elore, an Ares dropped on grid, but didn't jump the gate. Without thinking... I called to engage.

Image

They planned this - They knew we'd possibly engage, and I made a bad call. We all got weapon timers, so we couldn't jump, and the Hyperion promptly joined us. Within seconds, we switched primary to the Hyperion. The mistake here was this... Filthy Peasants have a habit of bringing overly powered ships to a fight. So moments after the Hyperion showed up, we had three Cerbs joining the fight. I called scatter, knowing full well we wouldn't last long against them. 2 of our Exequrors bit the dust as they were called primary. Sorry guys...

(01:29:55Z) Elore
Exequror -10.94m
Exequror -20.07m

We regrouped at a safe, and our scout tried to find us an out. Admittedly, we were trapped. They could cover the exits, and we knew this. They were on the Yveve gate, so we jumped into Meunvon. Once there, we attempted to hard press the Yveve gate, but our scout reported they were there, patiently waiting. We were completely trapped on an island, with no outs. For a short bit, we jumped to a planet. Yuri bravely made us a quick Tac outside the Yveve gate. As we warped to him, we saw the Ares again. Crimson, brave scout that he was, reported "They're jumping to you!" I made the best call I could... I told everyone to cross jump.

We (Well, most of us who weren't POCO tackled) were able to cross jump through and start our escape. While we couldn't quite outrun an ares, we could outrun their Cerbs and Hyperion. While on the way out, Dunbartian reported getting locked up in Conomette as he got POCO tackled (best tackle) back in Meunvon and was training behind. Thus... he lost his ship.

(01:43:37Z) Conomette
Vexor -22.07m

We made best speed back to Boystin where our Exequrors were already refitting. Once docked, we took a brief break and Yuri convo'd Cavemen. After discussing it with the fleet, we decided to drop fleet and join up with them in an attempt to bait Filthy Peasants into a fight. This ends this fleet, but I'll report on what happened in the Cavemen fleet as I learned a lot of valuable info.


Stats
ISK Destroyed: 0
ISK Lost: 53,084,026.97
ISK Delta: -53,084,026.97
Efficiency: 0%

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Here's the TL;DR as it was fairly uneventful. We joined fleets with Cavemen and joined their comms. They were actual a great bunch... and we were met with laughs and fun times. We attempted to get back to Vevelonel to draw out some Filthy Peasants. Once outside their gate, Corvidae Crowfoot (FC) took a small vanguard fleet in to try and roust them. We played a few engagement games, but nothing serious. Once back on the gate to Anckee, they sent a forward observer in... who promptly berated us for "upshipping" to try and bait them to a fight. Irony at it's finest...

When this didn't pan out, we flew around over into Null and up to KFR-ZE. Finding absolutely squat to engage, we went back to Faurulle, where we discussed in comms about an brawl at the sun. As it was fairly even teams, we agreed to terms, and they warped off. We dropped fleet, and recreated our new fleet.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Caveman Crash!

This was it... finally a fight worth our evening. I started getting the PvP shakes a bit... worrying about calling the wrong ships... but boy did the fight turn out great. See below for full report:
Spoiler
Calder Ormand - DD
Crimson Herring - DD
Dunbartian Wonderwood - DD
Kirsid Tannaway - EWAR
Mols Halleck - Hero Logi
Raxon Noseworthy - DD
Sturym - FC
Tyler Arnoux - EWAR
Yuri Levnik - Logi FC
- The Brawl -
(03:31:37Z) Faurulle

We started the fight with us holding at the sun. The second their DD wing landed, we waited... We knew the Exequror's would be shortly behind. With drones in space, we saw the Logi wing land. The first to become lockable was BlueFox04, so I called primary. Despite the work being done against him, his tank and reps from the other Exequror held fast. We felt a true stalemate was going on... but they started to slightly out damage our reps. Even overheating guns, we had trouble doing significant damage to break the tank on BlueFox04.

I called an audible and requested switching primaries to Milenny. At this time, Yuri pulled ECM Drones and sent them BlueFox04's way for a hug. Our EWAR team (Kirsid and Tyler as well) focused EWAR against BlueFox04, and it finally connected. This allowed us to get Milenny in hull, and he scattered. This was the tipping point in the battle...

Primary shifted to BlueFox04. At this point, Yuri started reporting he was going down. The sweat started to bead on my brow, and Mols overheated his reps... a lesson every great Logi pilot needs to know to do in situations like this. We got BlueFox04 to pop pretty quickly with Milenny off grid, which allowed us to get our first kill.

Exequror +23.63m

With one Exequror down and one off grid, we primaried the Blackbird for a realatively easy kill as he had no reps.

Blackbird +18.76m

While the Blackbird was in hull, we saw the Exequror coming back onto grid, still in hull with minor armor and slight shield. Not sure if he warped back in thinking the other Exequror was still up, or maybe he warped and we took down the other as he started warping. Either way... it cost him his boat.

Exequror +23.63m

From there - We started picking them off one by one. With nothing to rep, it didn't take long to bring down the remaining DD wing. As we started attacking primaries, I did my best to call secondaries. I mistaken said "next primary" instead of "secondary" from time to time, but my fleet understood nonetheless. I finally remembered to call out points on other ships to ensure they couldn't warp off. We knew they'd fight to the death, but just didn't want anyone to miss out on loving guns and drones.

Omen +37.55m
Moa +24.2m
Vexor +38.43m

We pretty much assumed this was the end, but Chester still had his boat out, and Tyler was going to try and tackle him for us. We tried to burn in the opposite direction to get a warp in, but this failed as he was already in hull when we got to range. He popped shortly afterwards.

Maulus -1.47m

Good Fights were had in local, we chatted it up with them a little bit, and used their pods to scout our way back to Boystin. Everyone had a hell of a good time, and we agreed we'd love to get more fights like this again in the future. A true testiment to a incredible fight?? When your hull and heat damage looks like Yuri's:

Image

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 166,200,832.8
ISK Lost: 1,473,037.37
ISK Delta: 164,727,795.43
Efficiency: 99.121%

What went well:
-We flew well, desipite a few hiccups. We kept pace and had some fun.
-We learned from our mistakes, discussing what should have been done differently in comms.
-We made some new friends on a diplomatic mission into Solitude with Cavemen... we may not be so diplomatic in the future. :twisted: :wink:
-We "ended" the night isk positive, despite the losses from a lopsided fight.

What needed improvement:
-I made a terrible call - engaging in Low on the gate and knowing what was on the other side was a bad decision. It cost a few ships... but we learned a valuable lesson.
-I made a call to jump into Meunvon, which allowed them to blockade us on both gates. Thankfully we skirted by, -1 who got stuck on a structure.
-I plan to start pushing the "form up" and "un-dock" times... often we say "undocking at XX:XX" and yet we undock like 15 - 20 mins later. I like to keep on time. Gives us more time for the pews.
-There were times I felt unsure of my calls... I second guessed myself a lot, but having Yuri there was nice as he provided me good filler while I got my bearings straight.
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Raxon Noseworthy
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Raxon Noseworthy »

ty very much for fleet i flew a maller accidently put some holes in logi during excitement never ever auto target back in fleet lol

also get cap stable i ran outta cap lots :( learned lots had fun thanks to all an thanks to cavemen for good fight :D
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MasterGlorfy
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by MasterGlorfy »

Thanks for the fight!
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Sturym
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Sturym »

Raxon Noseworthy wrote:ty very much for fleet i flew a maller accidently put some holes in logi during excitement never ever auto target back in fleet lol

also get cap stable i ran outta cap lots :( learned lots had fun thanks to all an thanks to cavemen for good fight :D
No worries, man. Things happen. It's easy to get caught up in the heat of the moment. It's not like you engaged a HIC bubble, trapping a pod of a friendly Uni in Null sec for him to get popped... for a 600 mil pod loss...

https://zkillboard.com/kill/66117591/
MasterGlorfy wrote:Thanks for the fight!
For sure! Don't take my harsh words as a thrashing... we expect that kind of stuff. It's a challenge, nonetheless. You guys did great on controlling the tempo and gates. I'm just happy we lost as little as we did.
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Yuri Levnik
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Yuri Levnik »

RE our fight with the Cavemen, the kill/loss statistics there are terribly misleading. That was the most balanced, closest fight I've been in on Tranquility. We were a stalemate for maybe 2-3 minutes as neither side could break the other's reps. Then my Exeq got webbed and focused and started very, very slowly breaking. You can see I hit 25% structure and 85% heat damage on my AB and Explosive Hardener. Mols also hit around 70% heat on his reppers keeping me alive. Those jams are what made the difference - Kirsid's Blackbird landed a jam and my ECM drones got at least one lucky jam off as well, shutting down Blue Fox's reps on Milenny just long enough to force him off grid. After that, we could roll up the rest of the fleet. Fun fact, I actually heard the bounty notification from Blue Fox blowing up and thought I had died because I was in hull at the time :shock:

Related - I usually fly ECM drones on my logi boats. Here's what ECM drones do better than logi drones:
  • -Most importantly, ECM drones get you on killmails, woop woop!
    -ECM drones can jam out an opposing tackle pilot who has you tackled, reducing incoming damage and allowing you to pull range or warp off.
    -ECM drones can be sent to harass the most annoying thing on grid (e.g. opposing EWAR).
    -ECM drones are useful even when you're the primary target (whereas logi drones cannot rep your own boat).
    -ECM drones can break a stalemate with a lucky jam, as happened in this fight.
The biggest downside of ECM drones is that they require you to either assist your drones or lock someone up and take up a valuable pre-locking slot. You also lose some reps, but most of your reps come from modules, not drones.
(End shameless plug)

Thanks to the Cavemen for the fun times and I do hope that poor Filthy Peasant who was raving in local got over whatever afflicted him. Space Madness perhaps?
Yuri
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"He's like a shark; a shark doesn't eat you because he hates you. He eats you because he's hungry and you're there." - Elihugh Beecher
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Drake Arson
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Drake Arson »

Allow us a chance to respond and hopefully you'll stop drinking the Cave Coolaid.

Our first subject, our ships. You mention that we typically "have a habit of bringing overly powered ships to a fight". These are the ships we fly with regularity. We do not see you coming and immediately ship up. The only exception to this was when you had your 15 man fleet and we have 5 with the domis, nestor and loki. With us constantly being out numbered against the locals we have to roam in higher tier ships to be able to survive.

The second subject, the form up time. It took you roughly 45 minutes to merge, reship and join us in our home system of Vevelonel. By the Time you had all gotten there, majority of us were in bed, or winding down before bed. I myself didn't even know you were coming till you showed up at our door, and by then, I say again, majority of us were in bed or on the way to bed. It was late For U.S East coast, we have work in the morning.

And finally, the big one: You had 3 blackbirds, 4 logi and a number of DPS against our small 5 man, no EWAR, no Logi fleet. Our only damage capable ships were 2-3 cerbs and a hyp. Assuming you had minimum 3 jammers per ship that's 9 jammers for only 4 ships that can actually do damage. That is more EWAR and Logi then our entire fleet! You had other forms of EWAR as well, but nothing significant. What this adds up is that you had plenty of coverage to completely nullify our fleet. Even if you had missed cycles, we couldn't do anything, as you had Logi. EWAR does not require skill and there is no hard counter. The only thing we could do is hope to burn range and just warp off.

On top of this, we didn't even know you were reforming. Normally you guys are good with communication and letting us know what you are doing so we can say Yay or nay, at least not wasting your time if you bring too much. What happened this time? Why was there no communication?

After talking to the few guys who were on, we decided we would of taken the fight with our same comp if you didn't have the Blackbirds. Even if you had sensor damps at least we could get closer and still fight.

Cave dislike towards us is strong, but please don't drink it up. I myself still remember when I took on a 8-10 man Caracal fleet with only a harbinger and an exeq. You guys loved it, and so did I. Our history of engagements should be proof that we are not unreasonable to fun and exciting fights for both parties.

If you have further questions regarding this engagement, I will be happy to answer them.
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Corvidae Crowfoot
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Corvidae Crowfoot »

We don't dislike you, Drake. We just have a hard time engaging you.

I'm not saying you outship us every single time, just a lot. This isn't trash talk. The ships you fly have higher skillpoint requirements, you are more experienced pilots. It's a completely legitimate form of gameplay and when you're flying ships that pricey it makes sense to be more cautious. That's seriously not a problem, it just means we also have to be more careful because we are fighting people both more skilled and more equipped than our average member.

Also doesn't help that our timezones are different, so when we're at our strongest, you guys are mostly docked, and when you guys are at your strongest, we have at best a few straggling members with no major FCs to lead them. Neither us or EUni could have taken you on our own, so we formed together. Naturally, since this doesn't happen often, this took quite a long time to sort out, hence the 45 minutes.

What it comes down to is that we originally formed for you, because you were around. But I'm looking for any excuse to fleet up with EUni because they're our favourite neighbours.

If you hear anything about us disliking or hating your alliance, then it's probably because you're listening to our comms and hearing internal line member frustration, not because we've been saying it to you in person, or smacking in local, or because CAVE leadership has anything against you. It's just different strokes.

Thank you for roaming, and thank you to EUni for forming up. I hope we can do the same again, hopefully when some more action is happening in the area for us to get in on! o7
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Sturym
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Sturym »

Corvidae Crowfoot wrote:But I'm looking for any excuse to fleet up with EUni because they're our favourite neighbours.
You like us... You really really like us! :lol: 8) :o

For real though... the intent was to learn and teach our pilots on the roam. This occured. It was good. I'm sure we'll fight again soon and it'll be awesome!
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Bora Vyvorant
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Bora Vyvorant »

I'd just like to thank Drake and Corvidae for dropping in and giving us their perspectives. I think it's really important to understand the way different groups think about the game.
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Sturym
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Sturym »

Bora Vyvorant wrote:I'd just like to thank Drake and Corvidae for dropping in and giving us their perspectives. I think it's really important to understand the way different groups think about the game.
I definetly second this.
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Drake Arson
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Drake Arson »

Crowfoot,

Either you missed it or it was intentional, but reference the part were we would of engaged had you dropped the blackbirds.

Your group is always claiming that you want fights and to have fun, yet you consistently bring ships that nullify that for both sides. For us, cause there is nothing to counter it. For you, you don't even get a fight cause of them.

TO push even further, the culture you have created within your alliance is rather toxic, and it shows. You teach your members that it is as if a honour to die to your guns. As if they don't fight, regardless of what they are in, that you are above us, or better. You expect us to bash ships against yours for your entertainment. That's not how the universe works.

If you want fights, it's simple. Stop using ridiculous amounts of ECM against smaller fleets, and if you, do not complain when you get nothing.
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michael Rinah
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by michael Rinah »

Drake Arson,

We teach our members similar to Eve uni to not be afraid to lose their ships, to not even be slightly disappointed in losing their ships. How can you see this as toxic? We do not always use ecm, just the other night we had none and your guys still went and up-shipped and they even had slightly more numbers and we were already outclassed before the reship.

You're risk averse and everyone except yourselves knows it, when it comes to fleets cavemen are not, most of our fleets especially cruiser and below are suicide roams. If every corp/alliance in game was risk averse like you guys i wouldn't be playing eve at all it would be boring blue balls all day everyday. I consider that toxic.

I am grateful for having E-Uni as neighbours as they are similar in our fashion and are not so risk averse = fun & training for everyone.

Keep it up E-uni 8) 8) 8) 8)
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Drake Arson
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Re: [AAR] Solitude Vexing Vexors / Caveman Crash

Post by Drake Arson »

Rinah,

I am going too call you out on your lie right now. It's Either that or you dont know what your own members are doing.

This battle report here: https://zkillboard.com/related/30003572/201712010500/ The remainder warped off and fled.

You brought 5 Blackbirds, 4 Exeq's and a handful of DPS, Including a Geddon with a Cyno fitted. How You consider this a " Fair " Fight is ridiculous. This is not the first time Cave have done this, and I expect it will only get worse.

This also follows what this very AAR was about. You and E-Uni combined to fight a small Roaming fleet with 3 Blackbirds, a number of logi totalling numbers we couldn't come close to countering.

I look forward to your response.
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