Kiting in nul-sec: need to break mental blockade

[Budda Sereda]

Yesterday I got a fleet of kiting shield frigates/destroyers into nul.

I would say, that the last hour of the fleet was much more interesting than the rest... maybe because I just screwed up the first part.

Let's start from the beginning. First, we did not get the same number as we had last few Saturday fleets. For the full roaming we had 15 people in fleet, but undocked with barely 11:

Spoiler

Arashi Shizukana
Birdinator Wyld
Budda Sereda
Ca'ain
Gatt2111
Gerrath Sabrinn
Glen Burney
Harai Rex
Jyo Cbip
Mike North
Nay Mayjee
Space Warfare Development
Will Musana
Wokum
Z0X Ambrye

I feel my first mistake was my mental expectation and VERY HIGH desire to get both dictor and CD into fleet so I got them, but probably sacrificed other things like logies and actual DD: we could catch things, but we would not be able to kill them effectively. So we had 1 T1 logy, 1 CD (later reshiped into T2 logy frigate), 1 Dictor, 2 SB, 2 ceptor pilots, Maulus, few T1 destroyers.

We did not really complete form up and 'newbro speech' when Glen reported Gnosis in Uphallant, I decided to let it go and catch him. We could not catch him, but got a couple of other targets:

(02:52:41Z) Dastryns
Taranis +35.79m - non flashy, we got him on the gate with no loses

(02:58:49Z) Agoze
Gnosis +83.66m - he was fought by Kestrels gang which we fought later
Capsule +0.01m

We spotted a gang of non-fleshy Kestrels, they engaged myself because I was flashy and feel the rest of the fleet was not, I jumped through the gate, and on the other side... fleet reported that Kestrels were not flashy to them... I did not really have plan how to deal with that and decided to play safe. But few gates further they had 2 Kestrels baiting ... We did kill 2 of them... when 4-5 more arrived. I was not able to disengage and same as few others. And... looks like we did not have DPS to kill the rest of them by also taking gate guns...

(03:07:59Z) Intaki
Kestrel +7.36m
Cormorant -16.23m
Nemesis -70.86m
Kestrel +7.3m
Bantam -8.03m
Capsule +0.01m
Kestrel +7.25m
Harpy -51.66m
Bifrost -104.69m

A few mistakes I here:
1. We were pretty much nul-sec fit expecting to fight things like CR/BC/BS (see bombers) and probably should not have engaged in low sec with a frigate gang.
2. As I already mentioned, fleet composition should have more mainline ships that can stand the fire. While instead I had too many support ships and as a result, we could not remove DPS from the grid easily.

Nemesis was lost due to gate guns...: I assume he was pretty much alphaed by guns... In a retrospective, I think bombers should have not even decloacked here... Or just agress and bounce immediately, without waiting for guns to apply. But, why WCS? Just to give area for mistakes? No, Bombers should stay at 30km to the nearest target... and not give a chance to land a point. If there is Keres of Lachesis on grid - 50 km to those folks.

We did reship (thanks Glen for getting into a logy!) and had few more engagements in Agoze:

(03:19:00Z) Agoze
Nemesis -62.91m

(03:26:48Z) Agoze
Confessor +82.23m - he was a member of 3 Confessors gang and dues to skills of scouts and bombers we landed on them and killed 1. Interestingly, if those pilots were a bit less risk averse and did not run away, they would have smashed our gang as we barely had people to apply DPS.

On the way to nul we got few more small targets:

(03:39:36Z) Vlillirier
Federation Navy Comet +35.25m

(03:57:30Z) Alamel
Dragoon +8.7m

We successfully bypassed Horde's BC gang (around 90 of them) and moved into a Pure Blind.

Our first targets were small, interesting: T1 logy frigate with a single drone applied more DPS than a SB Maybe Gerrath was late to the party making BMs?
(04:11:27Z) FWA-4V, 7RM-N0
Arbitrator +19.84m
Capsule +0.01m
Algos +10.39m

In 7RM things were looking quite until I jumped into a KLY and saw a dozen of different ships from BS till Caracal sitting on tactical.
I decided to engage and kill small things. This was exact type of engagement I was looking for, but as I already mentioned, our composition was not great. Plus, due to lack of experience and I did not perform really well.

We jumped all back to 7RM, landed on tactical, waited for them to come close. First it was Caracal, then Cormoran, and after that.. just MANY of them. First I called fleet to align to the sun so we can run away quickly and was trying to pick small targets, but after some point called it warp to the sun.

Interesting, even though I did a fleet warp, very few ships took the warp... and as soon as I was in warp I heard about a bubble droped on us. I called to OH MWD, burn out of the bubble and warp to the sun. Majority of people were able to do that, but we still lost few:
(04:24:15Z) 7RM-N0
Catalyst -25.42m
Catalyst -9.99m
Bantam -8.34m
Capsule -0.01m
Even though we had loses, I'm glad we were able to practice this and escape

Further we moved towars Icy areas with NPC kills, caugt ratting Caracal:

(04:41:26Z) EC-P8R
Caracal +17.62m
Capsule +0.01m

And VNI:
(04:53:44Z) R-LW2I
Enyo -48.55m
Eris -71.8m
Vexor Navy Issue +80.38m
Capsule +18.99m
Unfortunately losing 2 of us. Ca'ain told he was pretty much alphaed by heavies from VNI... I'm curious, how Enyo was lost?

Later we found Brutix, Gila, Procurer, BNI, HFI, killed first 3, let BNI run away from us, head HFI and called it a night.

(05:11:04Z) EWOK-K, J211936
Brutix +84.02m
Imicus +5.2m
Gila +298.39m

(05:24:21Z) EC-P8R
Taranis -47.23m
Procurer +37.82m
Capsule +0.01m

(05:38:17Z) L-TS8S
Harpy -62.84m
I was engaged at 0 to the HFI. I forgot I'm in scram range and instead of jumping through agressed him back. Clearly, I was killed.

I do want to mention separately last few engagements: they were SUPER exciting! We clearly had a small fleet, but expected that SBs will make the difference, and they did!!!

ISK Destroyed: 840,267,248.41
ISK Lost: 588,569,157.95
ISK Delta: 251,698,090.46
Efficiency: 58.808%

What was really great this time is that we did not lose any ceptor! I'm happy about this not because I saved some ISKs on extended SRP , but because both our scouts reached the level of mastery when they know how to stay alive. Great!
I'm kindly asking both Jyo and Z0X if you please to write few words on what did they do differently this time.

Improvements:
1. Have more than 1 mainline DD ship
2. Don't "kite" at 0 to the gate: twice I did this mistake and lost 2 harpies.

Interesting fleet, quite a bit of content. I am really sad I messed up the fleet composition, yet we got lots of fun. During the after fleet discussion we spoke about using something bigger than frigates: maybe Caracals (not BLAP though), maybe Thoraxes or Stabbers...

So I will try to implement this idea next Thursday night. See more details about an idea in the Events post: http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopi ... 4&t=107273 and next combat fleet: http://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtopi ... 6&t=107272

P.S. Kindly asking participant to fill-in the FCC Feedback form: https://goo.gl/forms/W6OTiwPMD2Lu1lmL2

[Ca'ain]

And VNI:
(04:53:44Z) R-LW2I
Enyo -48.55m
Eris -71.8m
Vexor Navy Issue +80.38m
Capsule +18.99m
Unfortunately losing 2 of us. Ca'ain told he was pretty much alphaed by heavies from VNI... I'm curious, how Enyo was lost?

I wasn't quite alpha'd, it took about 3 volleys. I got hit by the first and it broke my shields, I started to align out and took the second, in hull and started to warp but then took the third and popped. I should have been aligned out - but with my fit I needed to orbit at about 2500km to apply any damage, and needed the benefit of speed tanking. I really didn't like the fit for this fleet. I used the Uni recommended:

Spoiler

[Eris, E-UNI Eris]
Interdiction Sphere Launcher I
Light Ion Blaster II
Light Ion Blaster II
Light Ion Blaster II
Light Ion Blaster II
Light Ion Blaster II
Light Ion Blaster II
Prototype Cloaking Device I

Medium Shield Extender II
5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive

Co-Processor II
Overdrive Injector System II
Overdrive Injector System II
Damage Control II

Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Small Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I

If I were to fly this again in a similar fleet, I'd definitely trade out the blasters for rails and keep at 25-30+ km, and my skills didn't need the Co-processor II. I also feel the Eris (and Catalyst) is better to be armour tanked because we only have 2 mids, though this fleet was shield for the logies. I think for this kind of fleet (stay out as long as we can) could benefit from more support. Even putting in 1 remote armour repairer, and maybe if I was armour tanked, put in a remote sensor booster on the mid to increase target lock.

Maybe something like this (might sub out scram and MWD for an AB and some sort of Electronic Warfare):

Spoiler

[Eris, Fleet Armor Bubble (fork)]
Damage Control II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Coreli C-Type Explosive Plating
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates

5MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Warp Scrambler II

Prototype Cloaking Device I
Interdiction Sphere Launcher I, Warp Disrupt Probe
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S
75mm Gatling Rail II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge S

Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

I think the Eris works well if it goes in with the Vanguard but just behind - then it could apply the bubble to trap the ship if it escapes. I'd love to hear some Dictor tactics as this was my first time flying one. Is there anyway we could keep re-shipping as we went along (maybe a Occator with some packaged frigate hulls in the fleet hangar, would still need a friendly citadel to dock up in)

In the end, still a great fleet, and isk positive!

[Birdinator Wyld]

I will say this was quite a fun night, their were a few engagements where no side occured losses that were really great, the cerb and friends for example. Takes practice to learn to utilize each others ships and our entire arsenal. I know from my perspective, I would normally communicate with the FC more on what I'm damping and pointing and how you want to use me within the fleet.

I was busy for your low sec engagements and wasn't able to meet up with the fleet until you were in null sec.

About the fleet warp thing, I exempted myself as I was warping at different range than you and didn't want to land at the same time to be primaried. It can be hard to track the fleet with small groups like this since we had scouts out, dictor doing things and bombers lurking about as opposed to kind of all being balled up.

Looking forward to the Thursday shenanigans.

[Jyo Cbip]

Thanks for the fleet Budda!
I agree with your assessment of the ratio of DPS to support. It was certainly a different composition than last roam. With more DPS it is easier to avoid situations such as the Eris dying to that VNI , since we don't need every last gun in the fleet on the target and support ships can stay safer.

Worth noting that we killed that Gila and Procurer as part of a three-way small gang fight than included the Procurer, a Gila and a Megathron fighting a Rattlesnake and a random Cerberus taking pot shots at everyone from 200km off the gate. It was a pretty interesting engagement and we were able to leverage our position as the third party to take down the Gila while it was focused on tackling the Rattle. We would have had the Megathron too, we got him into deep structure and would have been able to break his hull reps, but without a dictor or much scram/web support we simply could not apply DPS fast enough before he could jump gates, MJD away, etc.

As far as interceptor losses, we did have one which was Arashi's to the battle Procurer (easy to not expect a scram-web fit on that one, that's the power of the battle proc I guess). He definitely deserves credit as another inty pilot, he caught the ratting Caracal (maybe more?) and helped scout. As for myself, the reason why I didn't lose any inties was simply that we didn't have many targets with a decent anti-tackle capability (such as RLML ships or fast frigates). The confessors early on were nasty and I would have lost a ship there without logi. But overall it was easy to dictate range and get on and off grid as necessary. Having 2 inties for most of the fleet was great as I feel like Z0X and I were able to back each other up a lot before the rest of the fleet arrived.

I would also suggest to the bombers to always be aligned out when you decloak to fire torps. In a regular blops fleet, you'll often get the advice to pre-align right after decloaking and warp as soon as you are yellowboxed. And seriously, if we are fighting a bunch of small stuff like frigs or T3Ds, why decloak at all? You won't apply well unless we have decent TPs in fleet. And even if you do there's a high likelihood of losing a bomber that's at least much isk as a basic T3D or T2 frig. The bombers can be useful in specific situations (fighting BS/BC in null with bomber support is great) but there's no reason to lose ships unnecessarily, or make poor kill trades to get cheap targets. No sane FC is going to blame a bomber pilot for staying away from, to give an extreme example, 10 Slicers in a FW plex.

Fleet teamwork was also pretty good on this one, some comms clutter but no major moments of confusion. I would encourage everyone to give FCing a try at least once, that way you get a feel for what information your FC actually needs and processes and what is just distraction. It will make you a better fleet pilot, no matter the role!

[Will Musana]

Since you asked about the Enyo loss.

The VNI had oversized AB and was burning away from us fast and someone called they lost point and several were out of range. I used my MWD to catch up and web/scram him. When the drones targeted me I aligned out. I had already cut MWD but had a decent amount of speed and a slow align, my speed dropped, the heavies caught me just right and I went down fast.

[Budda Sereda]

I'd love to hear some Dictor tactics as this was my first time flying one.

I think you are right, that fit is not supposed to tank damage: drop a bubble and jump through the gate. Or warp in on top of the opponent, bubble it, and warp away. But I'm the expert either.
Though, I heard that Eris is the least useful dictor. I don't remember "why" ATM, but never saw it used. Commonly seen in WH space is Flycatcher, in nul-sec - Sabre. Sometimes Pontifex... I guess you can't fly others?

Is there anyway we could keep re-shipping as we went along (maybe a Occator with some packaged frigate hulls in the fleet hangar, would still need a friendly citadel to dock up in)

That actually is an interesting option and we could fly a Occator with ourselves towards nul-sec (just guard him). I even can fly it by my trade alt, the only problem though is that alt is on the same account as main... I could stock fits and carry them proactively before the fleet, but need to know what are we going to fly. Also, it is hard to guess were will we go with our roaming. This time I was killed quite far from Mantenault...

I would normally communicate with the FC more on what I'm damping and pointing and how you want to use me within the fleet.

Please do next time, don't wait for me to give commands, or maybe at least ask for.

About the fleet warp thing, I exempted myself as I was warping at different range than you and didn't want to land at the same time to be primaried. It can be hard to track the fleet with small groups like this since we had scouts out, dictor doing things and bombers lurking about as opposed to kind of all being balled up.

I guess exempt from warp in a big fleet format is wise and it is FCs duty to communicate proper warp-ins and ranges.

As far as interceptor losses, we did have one which was Arashi's to the battle Procurer (easy to not expect a scram-web fit on that one, that's the power of the battle proc I guess). He definitely deserves credit as another inty pilot, he caught the ratting Caracal (maybe more?) and helped scout.

True, though what makes interceptor a THAT interceptor is a bonus to tackle moduels range:

5% bonus to Warp Scrambler and Warp Disruptor optimal range

That was more a DD/tackle ship, so I would expect them dieing more frequently than 'regular' ceptors like Malediction or Stiletto.

I would also suggest to the bombers to always be aligned out when you decloak to fire torps. In a regular blops fleet, you'll often get the advice to pre-align right after decloaking and warp as soon as you are yellowboxed. And seriously, if we are fighting a bunch of small stuff like frigs or T3Ds, why decloak at all? You won't apply well unless we have decent TPs in fleet. And even if you do there's a high likelihood of losing a bomber that's at least much isk as a basic T3D or T2 frig. The bombers can be useful in specific situations (fighting BS/BC in null with bomber support is great) but there's no reason to lose ships unnecessarily, or make poor kill trades to get cheap targets. No sane FC is going to blame a bomber pilot for staying away from, to give an extreme example, 10 Slicers in a FW plex.

All true, but I believe my fault here is as well: we should not engage with those small things untill they got unflashy and let them make mistake, as well as I was not kiting as I was supposed to.

Since you asked about the Enyo loss.

The VNI had oversized AB and was burning away from us fast and someone called they lost point and several were out of range. I used my MWD to catch up and web/scram him. When the drones targeted me I aligned out. I had already cut MWD but had a decent amount of speed and a slow align, my speed dropped, the heavies caught me just right and I went down fast.

Nice. That pilot traded well his VNI. Good job.
I remember we laughed when he send heavy drones... it appeared to be a good choice I guess.

[Ca'ain]

I think you are right, that fit is not supposed to tank damage: drop a bubble and jump through the gate. Or warp in on top of the opponent, bubble it, and warp away. But I'm the expert either.
Though, I heard that Eris is the least useful dictor. I don't remember "why" ATM, but never saw it used. Commonly seen in WH space is Flycatcher, in nul-sec - Sabre. Sometimes Pontifex... I guess you can't fly others?

I get that strategy then. While we are roaming, I'd like to drop on grid with the logies and take out drones with the rails. Then when we want to camp, and bubble drop in on 0. Yup; I'm 9 days away from flying a Flycatcher - the load out does seem better having many mids. I'm heavily trained in Galentte.

That actually is an interesting option and we could fly a Occator with ourselves towards nul-sec (just guard him). I even can fly it by my trade alt, the only problem though is that alt is on the same account as main... I could stock fits and carry them proactively before the fleet, but need to know what are we going to fly. Also, it is hard to guess were will we go with our roaming. This time I was killed quite far from Mantenault...

I can fly an Occator too. It would be a fun experiment - have a logi or two, and some T2 Frig hulls. It could be a really big loss though if the Transport got shot down.