[AAR] Solitude Caracal Campaign (Nov 9 02:00)

[Yuri Levnik]

Howdy all,
It was a strange fleet tonight in a very Solitude way. We undocked with a strong complement of cruisers, found absolutely nothing for the first 10 jumps, had three carriers cyno'd on us, found nothing for another 5 jumps, got a 100MN pod kill courtesy of our scout, and then declined an honor fight when the opposing fleet (who were the same guys who dropped carriers on us) brought 2x Nestors, 2x Dominixes and a Loki... Sounds like a normal night in Solitude, right?

Campaigners:

Spoiler

Creosart - DD, Snowflake Tackle
Crimson Herring - 3IC/Anchor
Dgdsgy Foobar - DD
Donal MacGregor - Logi
GaleBread - DD
Harai Rex - 1 Scout
Imad Gratia - DD
Kelon Darklight - Moral Support
Kirsid Tannaway - Logi
Lexor Sklor - 2 Scout
Mal Kard - Logi
Raijin Naom - DD
Razer Thukkerkin - DD
Silvestras Ramonas - DD
SketchyManDan Williams - Snowflake Tackle
Space Warfare Development - Bomber (of course)
Sturym - 2IC
Will Musana - Logi FC
Wokum - DD
Yuri Levnik - FC
Z0X Ambrye - Snowflake Tackle

As mentioned, we roamed as far as Anckee and saw almost nothing - the first several systems were totally empty and everyone in the last couple was docked up. In Anckee we passed by a couple of hounds but couldn't catch them. I had our 1 scout jump into Vevelonel and he reported an Archon (carrier) on Dscan. The pilot was almost definitely a Filthy Peasant. I filed that note away for later.

We jumped into Heluene chasing a Hound and set up on the gate. We almost got 'em before he cloaked and got away. Shortly afterward Drake Arson followed in a Gnosis. He decloaked but did not run, aggress or try to crash the gate. We opened fire and had him into armor when I saw the cyno I was expecting pop up. I called for the fleet to scatter as the archon we saw earlier and two more archons arrived, 2 Scythes, a Cerberus, a Slasher and a Stabber. We had the Gnosis almost into hull when we scattered. We lost the kill but we also all made it out alive. That's the first time my entire fleet has escaped a cyno - good job y'all!

We had some pilots stuck on the wrong side of the gate so we took a break. When we reassembled, we hunted some Blood Raiders in western Soli and hooked folks up with Crimson Harvest Accelerators. I had our 1 scout poking around in the meantime and he happened to catch the pod of a Goon who got blown up by gate guns. We'll take credit for the kill even though we weren't on grid at the time. Subsequently, our 2 scout got caught by the pilot that the Goon had tackled, accounting for our only loss of the night.

(03:38:12Z) Agaullores
Capsule +111.01m
Slasher -4.75m

We decided to try to arrange a fight with the Filthy Peasants on the assumption they would not drop caps (again). They agreed to fight us and we made our way over. They had not told us their comp beforehand and I literally laughed out loud when our scout told me they had showed up in Nestor/Nestor/Dominix/Dominix/Loki. I mean, I am glad they came out, but I asked for a fight, not assisted suicide. A bit of quick math will tell you that 14 Caracals cannot break a Nestor's reps, let alone under Dominix sentries and whatever that Loki was packing. We landed on grid at 120km anyway in hopes the Loki would burn out to us. It didn't, and we ended up bailing on the honor fight we had asked for. Next time we'll be more careful about making sure the opfor comp isn't too crazy );

We headed home, almost catching a ratting Dominix in Pertinineere before calling it a night.

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 111,014,206.7
ISK Lost: 4,754,955
ISK Delta: 106,259,251.7
Efficiency: 95.893%

What went well:

• -I feel like I say this every week but it's true every week: we flew well. Folks were where they needed to be when I needed them there.
  We anchored up when it mattered and we got away from the Cyno with no losses. Very nice.
  -Logi did great. We didn't really get to test our reps but they did practice some advanced flying.
  -Scouts did great. I got good intel and Harai managed to get us a kill (;
  -Sturym provided crucial assistance as 2IC, Will did a great job with the logi wing and Crimson pitched in as both anchor and 3IC.
  -We undocked with a large fleet (by Soli standards) that included both a Keres and Hyena (both loaner boats provided by me). Thanks to the snowflake pilots!
  -I had fun!

What could have gone better:

• -Space was awful quiet. Sorry there wasn't much content y'all.
  -Combat probes would have helped us catch the Dominix.
  -The arranged fight did not turn out how I wanted.

Thanks for coming out y'all! Join me for Talwars at LSC on Saturday AM/Friday night!
Yuri

[MasterGlorfy]

Can't speak exactly as to what Drake promised you guys when you arranged the fight, but you can't bring about 18 dudes and expect us to play it much differently than we did. Don't know exactly what math you did to decide you couldn't break reps, but it seemed pretty silly to us to arrange a fight and then bail without even testing the waters (especially when you're in the fleet that can disengage easiest).

My advice as to what your plan should've been:
-spend the first reload or two killing drones (you'll volley them before we can pull them)
-keep range out at 60km with caracals, ospreys can stay out at 80km so your logi is pretty safe (this mitigates our dps)
-if you find you can't rep through our dps at that point, disengage and leave

Our plan (for full disclosure):
-test tanks on ospreys first if in range
-test tanks on caracals
-go for undisciplined fleet members not maintaining a good range
-disengage with mjd's and sacrifice the one domi that had an afterburner

My honest takeaway:
Nothing risked nothing gained. We took a risky fight ourselves against E-uni just the night before (and lost the isk war big time), but had fun and would do it again in a heartbeat. Fights are fun and are the only true way to get better at pvp. Checking the "math" and all is great, but just using some strategy and your advantages could've made for an interesting fight.

All things considered, come back anytime. And for your pilots who want the low sec pirate life, we're recruiting, just holler in-game. Fly safe!

Here are the nestor fits so you can even go back and check your math (you could've guessed these those given the cap chains - the domi's each had two large reps as well):
[Nestor, [LOW.] Nestor - Triple Box]

Drone Damage Amplifier II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
1600mm Steel Plates II

Large Cap Battery II
Large Micro Jump Drive
Drone Navigation Computer I
Omnidirectional Tracking Link II
Sensor Booster II
Large Cap Battery II

Drone Link Augmentor II
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer
Large Solace Scoped Remote Armor Repairer

Large Egress Port Maximizer I
Large Egress Port Maximizer II
Large Egress Port Maximizer I


Ogre II x5
Garde II x5
Ogre II x5
Hornet EC-300 x5
Valkyrie II x5
Valkyrie II x5


Core Probe Launcher I x1
Sisters Core Scanner Probe x8
Mobile Depot x1
Mobile Tractor Unit x2

[Glasi Vookto]

I agree with MasterGlorfy here, nothing risked nothing gained. As you are in the uni and you are learning and trying things out, there is no reason why you shouldn't engage that, especially on a slow night like that. They would have no way of catching you, so stay aligned and poke at them. If getting low on shields, warp out. Yes, being in the Ini means someone will screw up and get caught at one point, but that's how you learn and get better.
If you were smart, you would order a CD from headquartes and you would keep them busy until he arrived. Then boosh one of them away and profit

[Silvestras Ramonas]

As someone who rarely does fleets, thought I'd give it a try last night. FC did a great job being super clear and calm throughout. Made for a good introduction to fleets and an overall good time--will definitely join again in the future. Only suggestion would be to have someone who is combat probe ready, especially in such a quiet region.

[Luca Goh]

I've a few scattered thoughts in fairness to Yuri.

It's likely that most Unistas are hitting out to more like 40-50 km in those Caracals, with some potentially under that. Top speeds and cap abilities are likely all over the place, meaning kiting/burning from a distance could very well lead to the fleet spreading out. If the FC modifies pace to mitigate this then everyone is moving at a suboptimal pace and one of the significant strengths of the doctrine is minimized. At the closer ranges the fleet is likely forced to fight the ability to disengage becomes lessened compared to what the doctrine is theoretically capable of.

I don't want to speak too much for Yuri on this particular point, but it's been my experience that established players, even those sympathetic to newer ones, vastly underestimate the knowledge, experience, and skill point limitations of newer players. It could very well be that most if not all of the Unistas are months away from sitting in a T3C and have never been close to taking one in a head to head fight. It's hard to shake the mentality that you cultivate as a new player, in no small part through firsthand experience, that there are certain ships that are just off limits in terms of engaging, especially with something like the logi support that was on hand here. It wasn't too long ago that T3Ds seemed like nigh invincible and uncatchable ships for my newbro brain. So even for the most rationally-minded assessment of a situation, the feeling of a newer player that shiny ships are just going to outclass you isn't to be underestimated, even if it needs to be actively worked out of.

This is not to say that a less risk-adverse mentality isn't beneficial, especially in the name of the learning process, especially especially in the case of ships that the Uni will reimburse much of the cost of. But as a six month old player who is constantly running up against the limits of my experience and skill points, even as I push against them, I find even well-meaning veterans to really underestimate these limits and the mentality they engender.

[Yuri Levnik]

Luca is right about our skills - about half of us were working with the minimum BLAP skills, which means 41km range and around 2/3 of the DPS that an all skills character shoots. We were also mostly flying meta3 launchers with T1 faction missiles.

Rough math as follows:

• -The Filthy Peasants' Nestor fit has 120k EHP with all 5 skills (I didn't know that at the time of course, but I know the approximate EHP for a Nestor).
  -On average, our Caracals produce around 11k damage per RLML clip since (as Luca noted, quite a bit lower than at all 5s). We had lost most of our drones when we scattered from the carrier drop so drone DPS was negligible.
  -We had 11 Caracals on grid.
  -Total damage from all Caracals firing one clip into a Nestor, assuming perfect application on a Battleship: 121k EHP. Just enough to get a kill assuming the Nestor sits there and lets us shoot it with no repairs and none of us die.
  -One Nestor can rep about 1.1k EHP/s on the other.
  -Our Caracal DPS will decline rapidly as pilots warp off or die.

Since we would only just barely kill a Nestor with full DPS and no reps, I figured we had no chance after factoring in reps and loss of ships. Now, I could be wrong about any or all of the above. I have been wrong about many things in the past (;

PS: Silvestras, glad you enjoyed the fleet! Wish I could say it was an unusually quiet evening but that was pretty normal for Solitude.

[MasterGlorfy]

This is not to say that a less risk-adverse mentality isn't beneficial, especially in the name of the learning process, especially especially in the case of ships that the Uni will reimburse much of the cost of. But as a six month old player who is constantly running up against the limits of my experience and skill points, even as I push against them, I find even well-meaning veterans to really underestimate these limits and the mentality they engender.

I don't think we underestimated you guys at all in terms of sp/skill. We were counting on that to balance out the odds. See what I posted above regarding our plan. If it was a more organized/disciplined/skilled group, that fight would've been a much harder sell to us. Regardless of us having battleships, fighting 10+ cruisers, ewar, and four logi is not easy given the numbers of pilots on both sides.

While I respect Yuri's look at the numbers and recognizing that straight breaking a Nestor probably wouldn't have worked, there are more than a few ways to break RR battleships without just pressing F1 and watching the missiles go (see my above advice for him as well as Glasi's).

Coming here and seeing Yuri's post, that he "laughed out loud" at our fleet comp, etc... prompted me to make my post to point out:
-our fleet comp was entirely reasonable (seriously, there aren't many comps where you can even out a fight where we're outnumbered more than 3:1)
-that fight was potentially winnable and definitely fun for both sides
-being risk averse justified by math means no knowledge gained, no strategies tried, no fun and fights had

Yuri has always been a fun guy to fly against, and I've heard is a fun fc to fly with, hence the post here with advice/justification. No hard feelings on my end about him arranging a fight and then bailing on us. I mean it when I say I hope to fight you guys again

[Budda Sereda]

Interesting AAR, thanks for contributing guys!

[Yuri Levnik]

MasterGlorfy, thanks again to you and the rest of the peasants for coming out to fight and apologies again for not engaging in a fight we requested. We'll work things out better next time!

I laughed at your comp because I expected a random collection of mismatched T1/T2/T3 cruisers, battlecruisers and maybe a battleship. Instead, y'all threw together a very compact and effective 5 man comp. It's like... I called an uber and expected a scruffy dude in a beat-up Honda Accord but instead y'all showed up in a suit and tie driving a flashy Escalade. Totally blew my mind for a minute (;

[Harai Rex]

Hey all, I served as 1 scout for this fleet and, regarding the arranged fight at the end, I will say that, although I wish we had taken the fight, I totally understand why Yuri chose to bail.

Regardless of any practical concerns about how much of a chance either side stood of winning the fight, I think its important to remember that one of the Uni's most important functions is showing brand new players that EVE is fun and worth the time commitment. For any newbie, the first (or first several) pvp fleet is going to be a confusing and nerve-racking experience, which would only be magnified if the fleet experience ended with a seemingly arbitrary and unexpected death (i.e. death by sentry guns at 100+km). I think its entirely possible that, after a relatively content-light fleet ending in random death, a brand new player might easily decide that pvp, or EVE as a whole, just isn't for them, which isn't what anyone wants. I can only guess, but I think Yuri and other Uni FCs are aware of this, and so they tend to handle fleets with more caution than otherwise. I think any other corp would've taken that fight without a second thought, but the Uni isn't like that, and I, personally, think thats for the best.