[NSC] We own the undock!!!

[Yuri Levnik]

I went back and reviewed my Vexor AARs and I have a grand total of 100MN in kills over 5 fleets FC'd. That's... pretty bad. I did get into one reasonably fair fight but I let a logi pilot leave early which left me with only one logi. Opfor had two logi, killed my Exeq right off the bat and we got rolled up pretty bad. So yeah, Vexors have not worked out well for me to date. We did blast a Mordu's battleship pretty good one time though.

[Apothne]

So for what you're trying to achieve I might suggest something like AB Rail Moas or AB Beam Mallers. The issue here is that if you don't mix in rails and screw your P and tarcking, it eats aall your PG, and if you go max tank lows with just drones you have super anemic DPS. If you want Damps or TDs I'd suggest doing Mallers w/ Celestis/Arbs as desired.

[Maller, UNI]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
'Refuge' Adaptive Nano Plating I

10MN Afterburner II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400
Tracking Computer II

Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M
Focused Medium Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

Hornet EC-300 x3

I know this isn't Alpha-Correct, but I can't remember what they can and can't T2 after the patch, so adjust meta as necessary.

[Budda Sereda]

This is already going out of fight at undock, but ... why not design roaming doctrine?

I know this isn't Alpha-Correct, but I can't remember what they can and can't T2 after the patch, so adjust meta as necessary.

Let's forget about alphas for a minute, we often can downgrade... I believe.

Why cancer drones? Hobgoblins II do almost 60 DPS, which is almost 20% of 348 from Beam Lasers (with IN Multifrequency). If you have logies and 70% average resist,... who cares about being tackled with 54k EHP?

And... 7.1s (8s) align time with prop mode off... no way. Replacing Plating with Nanofiber reduces EHP for almost 8k, but also reduces align time from 7.11 till 5.99 seconds

And the biggest problem with this fit is same as the problem with BLAP Caracals: the lack of tackle modules makes fleet VERY dependent on having a skilled tackle pilot and pretty much impossible taking fights on gates with non-flashies.

What if tracking computer replaced by EWar module: Web/Scram/Point? You don't need much range as Aurora falloff is in a target range, and you don't need much of tracking as an opponent will be (SHOULD be) webbed/scrammed...

BTW, why Cap booster? With just Alpha skills it has 2m of cap, with L5 - 4m. And I personally heard from Spectre Fleet FCs that even 1.5m is A LOT. Though, they told that about MWD Moas. Is cap booster a requirement? If yes, why?

Thoughts?

[Apothne]

- This will serve fine as a roaming doctine, if you want to have tackle mids switch to pulses and a mix of long points, scrams and webs. I though we needed to be able to fight out to 30-40, if we're in point range Scorch is bae.
- The difference between what you can do with 7.11 align and 5.99 align is literally nothing, you're still slow, but 8k EHP is a ton, i thought we were fighting a big fleet here? Align only matters in stuff like frigate fleets where you are trying to either be able to chase people down to run through camps.
- In LowSec, especially in larger fights, if the enemy wants to leave you can't stop them in 99.9% of cases. They extra tackle may help you gank a couple guys after the fight, but it really won't change the the outcome that much at all.
- Aurora falloff may be within targeting range, but closer targets will be helped a lot by a tracking script, and an optimal script means you can use higher damage ammo out to farther ranges.
- Larger fights with more ships can last longer, and you'll run into cap issues there. Also remember overheating often causes more cap, and this is before they potentially have neuts either spread or just on the primary to turn your hardeners off. 1.5m of cap is very little in almost any sitiation , even super fast frigate fights. IDK who that Spectre Fleet FC is but if they're telling you the cap on MWD Rail Moas is easy to deal with they clearly haven't flown them them-self.
- If you want just a pure roaming doctrine, my personal preference is the #TWEETFLEET Thorax for LowSec. They start scaling poorly after 25 or so people in fleet though due to EHP, and only work as a lowsec roaming doctrine, they're utter garbage in Null.
- ECM Drones can be nice to mess with logistics or neutralise force multipliers like Rapiers that you don't have the DPS to kill early in the fight, but damage drones are a valid choice too.

[Budda Sereda]

I often heard, very-very often that in a fleet fight you don't need to tackle the opponent ships. You push them from the grid and they either leave or you kill them.
I answer to that: if they smart they just leave.
The counter-argument: so if they leave - you win.

I did stop arguing in the past. But, for last half year I got some experience and want to present you 2 AARs when ignorance to keep the opponent tackled appeared to be a bad idea:

1. https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=107065 - we fought in kitey Shield AF against a small gang of Deacon-Pontifex-Heretic and 6-8 Confessors. They disengaged when they understood they can't win a fight. We lost nothing to them, but we killed only 1 Confessor (which was tackled by 3rd party).
2. https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=107142 - we fought in Arty Thrashers against a gang of T1/Faction/T2 cruisers. Not the best engagement, but plan was to shoot 1-2 of them and run away. We did apply damage to 4 ships, all of them pulled range before we got them killed. They preserved numbers, we killed nothing.

Conclusion: you don't need to care about tackle if your goal is to win the grid. In the majority of other cases, keep opponent tackled (scram and/or web) and your tackle ship alive is a VERY important goal. And as E-Uni does not engage in a structure warfare, but primarily focuses on roaming, tackle is a CRUCIAL element of the fleet composition.

[Apothne]

I agree tackle is a crucial component of roaming fleet, but having local tackle on ships fighting at 30-40k is somewhat ineffective in the comp we are discussing. I highly reccomend implementing a few of your higher skilled pilots in Lachesis with a mix of tackle and damps to compositions such as the ones we are discussing for the key tackles. I sometimes FCed from a double plated Lach while roaming in armour brawling doctrines in LowSec, it was fantastic.

[Budda Sereda]

I agree tackle is a crucial component of roaming fleet, but having local tackle on ships fighting at 30-40k is somewhat ineffective in the comp we are discussing.

Oh, if we fight at 30-40km then I do agree point is pointless

I highly reccomend implementing a few of your higher skilled pilots in Lachesis with a mix of tackle and damps to compositions such as the ones we are discussing for the key tackles. I sometimes FCed from a double plated Lach while roaming in armour brawling doctrines in LowSec, it was fantastic.

Are you saying that flying T2 CR in a fleet of T1 looks reasonable?
And if I upgrade fleet up to T2 level, in low-sec we won't look engageable. At least, I'm not ready to FC T2 cruisers... Though, this is coming.

Thanks!

[Apothne]

A single FC Lach isn't too crazy, having multiple of them may be. It very much depends on what you're generally seeing but definitely be aware of your relative engageability.