[NSC] We own the undock!!!

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Budda Sereda
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[NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

I logged in
NSC Standing Fleet wrote: [02:49:38] Budda Sereda > o/
[02:49:43] Budda Sereda > what's going on guys
[02:49:44] Budda Sereda > ?
[02:49:44] Rohan Amadeus > o/ <url=showinfo:1373//96132587>Budda Sereda</url>
[02:49:47] Nunnery Michigan > o/ Mr Budda
[02:49:53] Rohan Amadeus > bhaalgorn in pc9
[02:49:58] Rohan Amadeus > with a flycatcher and hurricane
[02:50:02] Factault Pissant > <url=showinfo:1377//2113319477>Tekno Alabel</url> <url=showinfo:5//30003285>JH-M2W</url>
[02:50:07] Budda Sereda > did we get point on it already? :)
[02:50:26] Rohan Amadeus > nope...saanguinee is playing games with them...seeing if he can kill them with his citadel. lol
[02:50:36] Factault Pissant > <url=showinfo:5//30003285>JH-M2W</url> clear
[02:50:46] Budda Sereda > is saanguinee gready and don't let others play too?
[02:50:52] Budda Sereda > saanguinee is a primary!
[02:51:05] Rohan Amadeus > lol
We did not primary saanguinee clearly but made him to ask "Who can undock a BS":
NSC Standing Fleet wrote: [02:53:18] Lanik Solette > x
[02:53:22] Budda Sereda > BC
[02:53:27] Derek Jalarr > x
[02:53:30] Nabs Hawk > Vexor? lol
[02:53:31] Amber Charante > mine is in jita now :(
[02:53:36] Nunnery Michigan > Hurricane / Celestis / Interceptor (Either)
So, no BS fleet. We had 21 in fleet, and I took personally the situation when sombody camping our undock and that is not something I can tolerate in a fleet of 20.

I asked "seriously?", made pvp ping, and asked: "x-up if you want to shoot":
NSC Standing Fleet wrote: [02:55:37] gaheris Anninen > x
[02:55:38] Harai Rex > x
[02:55:39] Nunnery Michigan > x
[02:55:40] Arrek Lemmont > x
[02:55:44] Nabs Hawk > x
[02:55:48] Rohan Amadeus > x
[02:55:50] Amber Charante > x
[02:57:07] Harai Rex > <url=showinfo:1378//2113102536>Padd en Tilavine</url> <url=showinfo:5//30003272>ZVN5-H</url>
[02:57:18] Amber Charante > they have sleipneir somewhere as well
[02:57:22] Rohan Amadeus > <url=showinfo:1380//687342494>Jance Walker</url> <url=showinfo:5//30003289>ZN0-SR</url>
[02:57:24] Nunnery Michigan > outside station
[02:58:21] Rohan Amadeus > <url=showinfo:1375//199878923>astowv</url> <url=showinfo:5//30003288>X-PYH5</url>
[02:58:51] Nunnery Michigan > -48%
[02:59:27] Derek Jalarr > with 4 damps you should reduce his targeting range to about 17.11km
[03:00:04] Arrek Lemmont > L Osprey
[03:00:18] Rohan Amadeus > l
[03:00:39] gaheris Anninen > x
[03:00:44] Nabs Hawk > x armor vex
[03:00:52] Nunnery Michigan > Sounds good - All 4 damps will go on bhaalgorn then
[03:02:11] Amber Charante > x caracal
[03:02:18] Nunnery Michigan > x Celestis
[03:02:27] gaheris Anninen > x brutix navy
[03:02:43] Derek Jalarr > x cyclone
[03:02:43] gaheris Anninen > sry drake navy
[03:02:56] Harai Rex > umm I just heard there was a fight here and flew down from LSC in a tristan =/
[03:03:11] Lanik Solette > bni
[03:03:28] Arrek Lemmont > x geddon
[03:03:28] Amber Charante > lets get it
[03:03:37] Amber Charante > ooooh
[03:04:00] Arrek Lemmont > L osprey
It appeared that we got more armor ships, I called people to reship into armor fit, asked logies to do the same.
NSC Standing Fleet wrote:[03:04:19] Nunnery Michigan > they'll probably leave soon
[03:04:25] Nunnery Michigan > we'll need to get going
[03:04:38] Amber Charante > agreed
[03:04:41] Arrek Lemmont > L augoror
[03:04:45] Nunnery Michigan > x
[03:04:48] Kembri Usoko > x
[03:04:55] Rohan Amadeus > L augoror
[03:05:05] Kembri Usoko > x van'
[03:05:12] Lanik Solette > x
[03:06:37] Zackal Jackal > Would a rupture help?
Sorry Zackal, only now I see your question. Answer is "Yes, everything would help!"

Plan was to undock myself and Saanguinee in Dominix. I planned to tackle Hurricane, asked Saanguinee to tackle a Sleipnir. My thought process was: I (in a Vexor) will probably die quicker than Dominix, but we will kill Hurricane till that time.

Unfortunately, Hurricane did not aggress me, while Sleipnir and Bhaalgorn did... I called fleet to undock and primary Sleipnir. He was tanking while he had charges, and at some point he deagressed, so I called to Overheat on Sleipnir:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/65393783/ +756M
Surprisingly, Bhaalgorn popped much quicker:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/65393791/ +713M

Hurricane did not aggress originally, docked up, undocked.. we pointed him and killed before he docked up 2nd time:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/65393795/ +71M

After we done, I learned we lost 1 logy early in the fight:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/65393782/ -38M

Good fight, 400M loot, and we own the undock!

Thanks everybody for undocking!
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Richard Starwalker
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Richard Starwalker »

Like I said in comms good job undocking people and taking the fight it was fun and we win. Glad you swapped to Armor Logi :)
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Rohan Amadeus
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Rohan Amadeus »

Was fun. Thanks for pulling us all together and FC'ing this whole thing. Always expect to lose my ship whenever I fly logi. haha
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

Shamefully, the strongest ship I have in NSC is Ferox (shield) and Vexor (armor) :)

Need to fix this.

P.S. Everybody please order and haul a Ferox (shield) and Brutix (armor)

Fits from fleet-up for a reference:

NSC Reship Ferox - T2
Spoiler

Code: Select all

[Ferox, NSC Reship Ferox - T2 Wiki(2)]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
250mm Railgun II
Small Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Warrior II x5

Spike M x480
Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2000
Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M x1000
Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M x1000
Navy Cap Booster 400 x30
NSC Reship Ferox - T1
Spoiler

Code: Select all

[Ferox, NSC Reship Ferox - T1 Wiki(1)]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Small Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I
50MN Cold-Gas Enduring Microwarpdrive

250mm Prototype Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun
250mm Prototype Gauss Gun
Small Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer

Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I

Warrior II x5

Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M x2000
Caldari Navy Thorium Charge M x1000
Caldari Navy Iridium Charge M x1000
Navy Cap Booster 400 x30
AB Armor Brutix, T2
Spoiler

Code: Select all

[Brutix, AB Armor Brutix T2]
Damage Control II
1600mm Steel Plates II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

10MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner
Target Painter II
Remote Sensor Dampener II
Warp Disruptor II

200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
200mm Railgun II
Small Gremlin Compact Energy Neutralizer

Medium Anti-Explosive Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Ancillary Current Router I

Hornet EC-300 x5
Hammerhead II x5
Ping me if you need help with meta version fit.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

Richard Starwalker wrote:Like I said in comms good job undocking people and taking the fight it was fun and we win. Glad you swapped to Armor Logi :)
Somebody did point out we are going to undock more armor than shields, and many people supported that. So why not?

Actually, another thing I should add to the AAR:
my first idea was to boosh Hurricane from undock and kill it first. This should have made others either to leave or to be more careful.
But, I could not find CD with fit myself and nobody else had.

Saanguinee commented on this:
you have to deal with what you have and booshing is not really needed
That make me think how can we trigger those guys to not dock-up and I came up with a baiting idea... :) The rest is in the AAR above.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

Derek, for both Sleipnir and Bhaalgorn you applied 20% of DPS from the Huricane, more than Dominix, DNI, etc... what's your fit? Superblingy AC?
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Apothne
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Apothne »

Hi,

I don't know if that Augoror fit is E-Uni standard or personal, but it is quite sub-optimal and over-expensive. With All V (just for the sake of comparison), you're looking at 22.9k EHP, 75/68/63/69% resists and 597m/s and runs you 43m in Jita. The cap recharger and the RR rigs are also entirely unnecessary.

The following fit is only 38m, has 27.2k EHP, an extra SeBo (so you can run a Scan res script to lock people faster as well as anti-EWAR of choice), 70/75/71/69 resists which can overheat to 70/81/78/77 at 31.7k EHP. In terms of cap stability it only needs one incoming transfer to run everything, so lower skills should not be a problem. Any of the cheap green Thermal Hardeners will do, doesn't have to be true sansha. The CPU is admittedly a little tight, but to fix that you can either Meta SeBos or get another cheap faction hardener.
Spoiler
[Augoror, Apothne's Augoror]

800mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
True Sansha Armor Thermal Hardener

10MN Afterburner II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Sensor Booster II

Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium Remote Armor Repairer II
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Hornet EC-300 x4
Hope this helps!

Apoth ♥

P.S. Budda edited the post: I've added the name to fit to make fit EFT-capable, it was not.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

Did not even look into that fit, but it is not E-Uni standard.

Not that we have the standard, but something really close is the fit from BLAP Vexors: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Basic_Le ... Fittings_3

It also has GREAT SRP, I recommend everybody to have one BLAP Augoror and BLAP Osprey ready to undock. Even if you 'usually' a DD pilot, please do have logy to undock: this can make fleet to undock at all.

Once thing as FC I should have done better is to ask somebody to undock a dictor and bubble the undock once we started breaking Sleipnir: we could catch their pods too. Don't believe that would be expensive pods, but it could be.
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Apothne »

The BLAP Vexor fit is...Disturbing.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

Apothne wrote:The BLAP Vexor fit is...Disturbing.
Could you elaborate? For me it is VERY slow for aligning and moving on the grid but tanky, has high DPS and mid utility: could be good to shoot or defend structures...
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Apothne
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Apothne »

Budda Sereda wrote:
Apothne wrote:The BLAP Vexor fit is...Disturbing.
Could you elaborate? For me it is VERY slow for aligning and moving on the grid but tanky, has high DPS and mid utility: could be good to shoot or defend structures...
For me it's just trying to do too many things at once. It has tackle, EWAR and FOUR weapon systems. I can't tell what range you're trying to fight at or how you apply damage, it feels all over the place. In solo PvP, a mix of drone sizes work because they go and sit on the opponent and you're just trying to beat their active tank, or run through their buffer. In these, you fire your railguns, then the light drones arrive, then the mediumm drones arrive, then the heavy drones arrive. Opposing logistics could not ask for better signalling. If we're looking at fleet work in railgun range (typically 30-50km), that long point isn't going to do much for your, you're better off running a second Damp. Having fulkl tank lows implies to me that you're fighting a very lareg fleet and trying to not get volleyed. That opposing fleet is likely to have a serious amount of logistics which further exasperates teh multiple weapon system problem.

On top of all of the above, it is a super complicated ship to fly for young players, you have turrets, drones and 2 types of EWAR to manage before you even begin to deal with being in space and trying to know what else is going on around you.

I was going to fiddle with in Pfya but according to my Alpha clone this is over on PG by more than 4%? That can't be right?
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Yuri Levnik
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Yuri Levnik »

I've had the best luck with the Vexors when I load antimatter ammo, sit within point range and match all ships' drones to the size of ship we're fighting (all mediums vs cruisers, all lights vs frigates, etc). The Vexors tank very well (for T1 cruisers) with 3-4 logi pilots so I'm comfortable brawling in them. Also, they're too slow to kite anything except afterburning battleships...

We do have issues with guns signaling our primary to opposing logi and it's very hard for most pilots to get the "send drones first then hit guns after they engage" timing down (myself included). I also assume when we fly Vexors that most of my pilots are not using the damps effectively. We did get a kill one time due to damps, but I don't think that justifies making the ships that much more complicated to fly :lol: I think webs or scrams are a better choice for me since I'm trying to brawl and the Vexors are too slow to catch anything that isn't webbed and scrammed to the point where it's nearly stationary.

Depending on your Pyfa version, you may have picked up the -100 powergrid adjustment to the Vexor, which I think makes the fit no longer alpha-friendly. Compacting the plate and the afterburner will probably get you back into an alpha-friendly fit (but run afoul of Uni SRP rules).

Very curious to hear your thoughts, Apothne. I fly Vexors frequently since my campus only offers SRP for Caracals and Vexors. I'll admit, I find the BLAP Caracals a lot easier to roam in, though I'd rather have Vexors in a brawl.
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Apothne
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Apothne »

So are you trying to fight in Scram range or at 20-30? Also Low or Null or both?
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Yuri Levnik
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Yuri Levnik »

I try to fight in Scram range. I will fight targets fuether out with an ammo swap but that is not my preferred range. Since the boats are slow sometimes I do have to fight further out, and obviously the drones apply equally at any range once they've travelled to the target.

I roam Solitude low sec and Syndicate null. I find the Vexors, with enough logi, do OK under gate guns and in bubbles (unless there's a cyno incoming).
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [NSC] We own the undock!!!

Post by Budda Sereda »

@Apothne: I never looked at BLAP Vexors from the perspective you described. Agree with your concerns... I would probably agree with Yuri: they are good for brawling (the exact purpose of this particular fight), and I agree with you: they are quite complicated to fly properly, but good enough to tolerate quite a few mistakes.

We do have at least one success story of using them: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=104513. I would say, that was probably the BEST possible doctrine at that time: many unistas had prepared ships with modules, skills; ships are quite tanky that permitted at least some of them to catch reps from logies.
Problems we had to deal with: many new players, a low experience of big fleet fights. Even now, half-year later, that is the 2nd biggest fleet I've participated and the biggest I was FCing (part-time though, 2IC).
With all difficulties, we won the fight ISK-wise, we stayed on the grid, and achieved the strategic goal of shooting down POCOs against a decent size fleet which had almost than a dozen T3Cs with around 20 OOC T1 logies support.

Maybe kiting Caracals would work better, but not sure if we would be able to execute them properly.
Another alternative could be a BC fleet (Feroxes, for instance), but many unistas would not be able to even sit in Feroxes or had quite low skills to justify Feroxes usage. I would estimate the half of fleet would need to downship to something...
I guess Feroxes with support would perform well: we would have 20-30 Feroxes and MAYBE even smashed opponents... But in that case, opponents would most likely not engage at all and we would just bashed POCO and had no such a beautiful fight.
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