[AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

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Adrien Claremont
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[AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

Post by Adrien Claremont »

Overall a frustrating night I found. We didn't get anywhere near the number of fleet members I was hoping for, and we then struggled to find any real fights throughout the roam. We did however get into a fairly decent fight with HCOOK, however they didn't commit to fighting us like I hoped they would.

Roam members (12)
Spoiler
Adrien Claremont
Crimson Cadelanne
DeanSherman
Eddie Dante
Hamok Shah
Lexara Ellecon
Muzzy Chuck
Prieblanda Anstianski
SMBEHJ
Zana Fehrnah
bringdapain
logan Zx
The Vey pipe was empty all the way up to Black Rise. As soon as we got there, Eddie managed to get eyes onto HCOOK who were just about to jump into us. We bounced to a ping and warped back at 70km from the gate, ready for them to come through. The first thing to break cloak that I was confident we could take down was a non-flashy Breacher. We almost got him before he started to catch reps. Once I saw that he had reps, we bounched to the sun which we were pre-aligned to. I wasn't sure if HCOOK would warp at 0 or at 100km, so I chose to warp at 50km. We immediately aligned back out with the intention of blapping any light tackle that landed first. We took the Crow down nicely and switched to a Merlin. Similar situation to the Breacher, once the Merlin caught reps I bounched back to the gate at range however HCOOK didn't follow us this time.

I was surprise as to how we lost anyone here. I tried to be as clear as possible at the start of the fleet that if anyone was yellow boxed at all when we were fighting then they should just warp off. To be fair, it was very chaotic and people definitely need to be on the ball with what they are doing, where they are aligning to, etc. Overall a fair trade I thought and certainly for me it was a great opportunity to practice flying this doctrine in this way. Hopefully everyone else enjoyed the brief engagement too.

(19:01:59Z) Hikkoken
Crow +39.47m
Vigil -2.05m
Cormorant -17.21m
Capsule -0.01m

Once HCOOK had despiked the system, Xana appeared in a medium. Eddie wasted no time and we dived right in. We managed to take him down relatively quickly, certainly to my surprise after the HCOOK fight. As we struggled to take down the T1 frigates previously, I though he'd have been able to tank us a lot longer than he did. Thanks for taking the fight, Xana!

(19:08:02Z) Hikkoken
Vexor +42.79m

On her way to reship, bringdapain was caught out by a smart bombing Proteus.

(19:09:12Z) Akidagi
Capsule -0.01m

As we continued to move through Black Rise, a Stiletto jumped into us and began to burn away. I called to align out and shoot. He quickled burned outside of our optimal so we warped off. As we did though, an Omen jumped the gate into us and managed to snag a tackle on one Corm. We quickly came back at range. The Stiletto was back in range too so once again we tried to target it... and once again he pulled range, so the fleet bailed and docked up for repairs.

(19:13:37Z) Pynekastoh
Cormorant -12.74m
Capsule -2.15m

Eddie continued to scout the system and found an assortment of things outside a medium. He'd warped at range but landed on top of another Stiletto. The fleet warped to Eddie but couldn't save him on time. Once again, the only thing on grid that we could take on was the Stiletto and, once again, it was able to burn far enough outside our optimal before we could take him down. A Coercer gang also warped into the fight, but at zero on the acceleration gate. We almost blapped one, but he just managed to escape in structure with the rest of his gang into the plex.

(19:21:20Z) Pynekastoh
Stiletto -38.33m
Cormorant -8.89m

We had another quick pause in Aki while Eddie reshiped before heading up to the Martoh area. Straight forward gank on the way up there but we didn't manage to find anything else.

(19:35:48Z) Aivonen
Kestrel +7.99m

I think at this point we were all a little frustrated with how we just couldn't kill anything with the numbers we had so we headed home. Conscious that it was still a little early, we few of us reshipped and spent an extra half hour camping the Stacmon gate in Ost but even then we couldn't kill anything!

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 90,249,824.39
ISK Lost: 81,391,150.06
ISK Delta: 8,858,674.33
Efficiency: 52.581%

The Good

The one thing I really wanted to practice was the "Align out, Blap light tackle, Warp off, Repeat" manoeuvre. While we only had the opportunity to do it once, I think it worked quiet effectively even with the small numbers that we did had. I think the difference between killing this Crow and not killing the various Stilettos is that the Crow burned towards us, not away, giving us time to get the kill.
It looked like everyone was managing to keep up with my chaotic commands too, which is great. Hopefully it wasn't too traumatic of an experience for everyone!

The Bad

Straight up lack of numbers really hampered what we could actually take on with this fleet. I really wanted to find another fleet (Cruisers would have been great) to try and take on their light tackle again but unfortunately it wasn't to be.

For those taking part in the CCI, this fleet will count as a LSC participation event: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/CCI
For those who lost a ship, don't forget that you can claim a hull back through the Uni SRP: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/SRP#Uni_ ... sements.29
Finally as I am taking part in the FCC, please fill in the FC Feedback Form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... rm?c=0&w=1

Cheers guys and thanks for coming out.
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

Post by Budda Sereda »

I'm glad you guys said warm "Hello" to Xana :)

Did you have logies Adrien? I assume the answer is "no", your tank is the range I guess.

Just recently I was thinking "what is better Longow Cormorants or BLAP Talwars?" Former have longer range, similar DPS, but Talwars are cap stable, have a bit higher speed, almost 40% better tank, and MUCH stronger alpha. In this particular case, I'm sure you would alpha that first Merlin, and maybe few more ships. How many logies did they have? If they had just 2 I think your fleet would be able to break them...

That's is not to say doctrine was wrong, absolutely not. Just thinking what is a better application for each doctrine. I guess, Cormorants would perform better in gate camping (instant application), but alpha is quite low.
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Adrien Claremont
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Re: [AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

Post by Adrien Claremont »

Cormorants have one huge advantage over Talwars in my eyes, and that's the instant damage application. When you are trying to shoot things quickly before warping off, I think added flight time for missiles would really screw it up over the increase you'd gain in alpha. Being cap stable isn't really an issue as you shouldn't really be burning around the field with your MWD on, and you don't need tank because if you are taking damage then you are simply doing it wrong.

I get what you are saying though. Each doctrine has their uses.

Do missiles disappear too if you leave grid?

Oh, and similar to Talwars... no logi required!
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DeanSherman
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Re: [AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

Post by DeanSherman »

Adrien Claremont wrote: Being cap stable isn't really an issue as you shouldn't really be burning around the field with your MWD on, and you don't need tank because if you are taking damage then you are simply doing it wrong.
I do not understand fights on gates vs non-flashy targets. Gate guns shoot 2-3 times and i warp off in structure. Should i bounce back or go for repairs?
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Budda Sereda
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Re: [AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

Post by Budda Sereda »

DeanSherman wrote:
Adrien Claremont wrote: Being cap stable isn't really an issue as you shouldn't really be burning around the field with your MWD on, and you don't need tank because if you are taking damage then you are simply doing it wrong.
I do not understand fights on gates vs non-flashy targets. Gate guns shoot 2-3 times and i warp off in structure. Should i bounce back or go for repairs?
Heh, 80% of my fleet fights in low sec are on the gates.
Guns shoot once per 4-6 seconds, so even if shot once you have plenty of time to align out and warp away. Staying even in T1 frigate, almost always you can take even 2 shots, and if there are logies - even 4.
Also, guns shoot 1 target (2-3 times), 4 if it stays on grid and dies. And only after that switch to another target. So fleet has 20-25 seconds 'per slow' pilot until guns switch to another pilot.

So your sequence of actions is:
1. Start locking target
2. Chose a bounce point and align out (simplest option is the nearest celestial on the pod saver, or better a tactical BM on the gate - you should have pretty much on any gate).
3. Once started taking guns fire warp out
4. Warp back to somebody who did not bounce yet or already returned

With this scenario, a fleet will have 1 member bouncing out each 10-15 seconds, and in a fleet of 10-15 pilots you should have plenty of time to warp back.

The only case you can really die is if you are pointed or scrammed by the opponent. In this case, you should OH your propulsion module (unless you have MWD and scrammed), pull the range and warp away as soon as point/scram on you is lost (you should be already aligned).

There are other tricks to avoid gate guns fire which is a good option for a tackle:
1. Lock opponent
2. Align out, make sure you have 75% speed and proper direction
3. Activate your weapon and IMMEDIATELY (don't wait for result of your actions) warp away
4. Bounce back.
This way you will trigger aggression, and come back to the grid: the opponent will be able to attack you, but guns won't. Now you can land a tackle and your only goal is to keep your target engaged so it does not jump but agresses you.
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Re: [AAR] Longbow Cormorants 04/10/2017

Post by Laser Skaron »

Budda Sereda wrote:Just recently I was thinking "what is better Longow Cormorants or BLAP Talwars?" Former have longer range, similar DPS, but Talwars are cap stable, have a bit higher speed, almost 40% better tank, and MUCH stronger alpha. In this particular case, I'm sure you would alpha that first Merlin, and maybe few more ships. How many logies did they have? If they had just 2 I think your fleet would be able to break them...
You definitely bring them for the range and abuse that. As far as I understand it, the whole point of Cormorants is fighting at 70-100km and not get shot back at. I don't think instant damage application is necessarily a big plus as not many fleets out there care, but Cormorants are well equipped to fight against missile boats as the tactics one should use to fly them allow warping off before missiles arrive.
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