[FLEET] Thoraxes vs Mallers - Okkamon showdown

[Kora K]

o/

Fleet fight, yeah \o/ Thanks everyone for joining, I hope you had as much fun as I had during the fight

So, we decided to take some Tweet Thoraxes out last night for some good LS brawling. This doctrine is a staple of the LSC, and it's basically the Cruiser version of the Tater Tots doctrine. MWD on, get in their faces, unleash fury with antimatter and drones, die, repeat. I was contacted the week before by my good friend Captain Cean (HCOOK), who proposed a T1 Cruiser brawl (AT THE SUN) with them. Since the fleet was planned, and I was pumped up to have guaranteed content and a sure fleet fight, I accepted.

The form-up was smooth and quick, pretty much everyone had been on more than 3 PVP fleets. Also, for the first time, I had to tell people to not bring more logis, because we had 1 for 2 Thoraxes 10mn before undocking. Anyway, in the end we had a simple but effective comp :
- 6 Logis
- 19 Thoraxes
- 2 scouts
- A pontifex and a Keres.

Since HCOOK told me they would be ready in 35-45mn, I decided to go towards Nen while looking for some targets on the way. The systems were mostly empty, including BR. So once in Oinasaken, we decided to go straight to Okkamon and wait for HCOOK to be ready. I already told them we had Thoraxes, so opsec was not an issue. We warped to a safe near their citadel, so we could try to see what they would bring. I was expecting something kitey and fast, probably shield tanked, and I was preparing for some CD shenanigans for that possibility. When some of them undocked, the ships were Maller named "AB Beam Maller", so I was pretty wrong (and it wasn't a ruse either). I proposed to Captain to fight at the large, and I warped the fleet at 20km from the beacon.

MAX HYPE!

At the large, everyone was preparing for the incoming fight : Logi burned away and cap-chained, Thoraxes anchored on me AB on, our scouts and Keres readied their points/scrams/damps, and B'aldrick was hiding among us boosting. We saw them appeared on D, and I was expecting them to warp at range, and not directly from their citadel. They warped at 0 on the beacon, and we immediately started burning to them.

Since Mallers are very tanky, I decided to grab some Augorors first. The first one was not breaking, so i switched to the secondary. Again, we couldn't break him, so we shot a 3rd Augorors (not broadcasted previously) while overheating, and he went down. We then managed to kill a second Augoror not so long after the first one. At this point of the fleet, we traded 7 Thoraxes for 2 Augorors. The info I had, from fleet chat, was 4-5 Thoraxes down.

I decided to keep fighting, mainly for 3 reasons :
- The Mallers/Augorors are slower than dual proped Thoraxes, and used beams, so we had the DPS advantage. They could not burn away from us.
- We didn't lose any Logi yet, and they had only 3/5 left
- I thought we had only lost 4-5 Thoraxes.
- FLEET FIGHT \o/

I was confident that once we took care of their Logis, the fight would flip for us, even after taking high losses at the begining. So, let's start calling new primaries

I went for a 3rd Augoror, thinking he would be the tipping point, and we went down fast. We switched to a Maller, who also died quickly. The ennemy Mallers were burning away a bit (10-12km, not that much but still outside optimal range), so I primaried the last 2 Augorors. It took us 2-3 minutes to kill them (don't forget to only shoot the primary guys, we had enough Thoraxes to burn him quickly), and we lost another batch of Throaxes (6) for it.

Since we were really low on DPS at this point, with 4-5 Thoraxes left on field, I though about scattering. But since we had all our logis left, and they had none, I went all in. We managed to trade 1 Thorax against 6 of their Mallers, which left only 4 ennemies on the field. I reminded everyone to spread tackle, but 2 of them bailed before we could scram them. We killed the last 2 Mallers, and went to dock.

In the end, we traded 16 Thoraxes (we had 19) for 5 Augorors and 9 Mallers. We won the field tho, and the fight probably has 50% ratio regarding isks.

We lost 2 additional ships after that, and killed a Caracal. Decklin, who was looting the field, called us when he got tackled by a Caracal. We warped to the Large, saved Decklin and shot the Caracal. After warping again at the station, I was informed about a Rattlesnake in the Large, so back to the field. The Rattlesnake was soon followed by some nasty ships including a carrier, so we bailed. We lost a Thorax and a Augoror tho, sorry guys

After a 15mn break, the few of us left standing went back to Uph and docked safely.

Spoiler

Roam members (29)
Aeliyah Thor
Alf Saissore
Altar Kabal
Ann'Dra Padecain
B'aldrick Aivoras
Bill Achasse
Calder Ormand
DeanSherman
Decklin Quark Reiger
Doctor Kling
DonBasuno Ichosira
Eddie Dante
Ersin Oghuz
Genwhi Thellere
James Sylveste
Kirsi Isrik
Kora K
Krektogar Garkros
Oh' Leeador
Rebulah Conundrum
Rider Isleman
Rikali Laru
Torg Navatin
Turlough Dominian
Wokum
Xana McBash
Z0X Ambrye
Zana Fehrnah
ashahara

- Scouts : Eddie Dante, Doctor Kling
- Logis (6) : Ann'Dra Padecain, Alf Saissore, Torg Navatin, James Sylveste, DonBasuno Ichosira, Zana Fehrnah
- CD : B'aldrick
- Keres : Bill

Kills and Losses
(19:19:52) Okkamon
Thorax -32.35m
Thorax -31.07m
Thorax -35.14m
Augoror +27.86m
Thorax -32.87m
Thorax -33.55m
Thorax -19.85m
Thorax -29.04m
Augoror +27.83m
Thorax -39.97m
Augoror +27.86m
Thorax -38.53m
Maller +43.36m
Thorax -37.19m
Thorax -28.81m
Thorax -36.98m
Thorax -33.35m
Thorax -40.02m
Augoror +27.86m
Thorax -35.57m
Augoror +27.86m
Maller +42.92m
Maller +40.84m
Maller +47.49m
Thorax -20.74m
Maller +40.84m
Maller +42.45m
Capsule -0.01m
Maller +42.22m
Maller +41.06m
Reaper -0.05m
Maller +39.98m

(19:41:07) Okkamon
Caracal +32.88m
Thorax -30.78m
Augoror -23.07m
Impairor -0.03m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m


Stats
ISK Destroyed: 553,287,985.67
ISK Lost: 578,999,576.14
ISK Delta: -25,711,590.47
Efficiency: 48.865%

You can also find the (well-written) AAR of one of our logis (James) here : https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/6 ... time_logi/

Thoughts :
- I quickly discussed with Captain, and the warp in at 0 was a mistake from him. We got lucky on that one.
- While waiting for them to come, I asked to anchor AB on, which was a mistake. They landed close to us, luckily, but if they had warped at 100km from example, it would have been better to have no prop mode, to avoid waiting for the AB to cycle.
- Holy batman I was not expecting that much DPS from the Mallers, and we were in brawling range with an AB. We lost a lot of Thoraxes at the begining, and I'd like to know if it was entirely du to the ennemies, issues with broadcasting, or logi-ing. Any insight from other fleet members would be appreciated.
- For some reason, I though the Maller had an utility high slot. So when I heard someone saying he was neuted, I "ignored it". Turns out they had a neuting Maller among the herd, and I would have primaried him right away if I knew that.
- Following targets, even when switching rapidly, was pretty on point for all the fight. Great job everyone Always check your guns/drone from time to time tho, especially since I repeat and rebroadcast the primary a lot. I hope my target calling was not too difficult to follow.
- Please remember to spread tackle, we lost a couple of Mallers at the end, and a Punisher.
- Again, I hope everyone had fun, even if we waited most of the time. Any comment/remarks are welcome here.


o7

[B'aldrick Aivoras]

Very nice and clear target calling Kora and a fun fight - thanks Capt Cean and HCOOK.

As I'm still learning CD, I initially burnt away from the main fleet after boosting. A few Mallers aggressed me but logi were on the ball (in fact were awesome throughout). I think I was still in range for boosts but headed back to the main fleet as they had landed at zero and we were in a slugfest.

At various points I was jammed I noticed a thrasher on grid but I don't know what it was doing but I send my drones after it to shoo it away.

I was surprised HCOOK didn't have a CD as we've faced before and am only slightly miffed I didn't get to boosh anything but that was the best fun I've had with a SKIN on for awhile

Just wish I'd recorded it to look at again!

.

[Torg Navatin]

Holy batman I was not expecting that much DPS from the Mallers, and we were in brawling range with an AB. We lost a lot of Thoraxes at the begining, and I'd like to know if it was entirely du to the ennemies, issues with broadcasting, or logi-ing. Any insight from other fleet members would be appreciated.

Can't tell if our pilots broadcast on time, but by the time I got a broadcast locked (logi had to use ECCM-scripts in the sebos), they were already out of shields and dipping towards half-armor. With two reps on them, and the cycle time of armor reps, the Mallers just kept on stripping the paint off. Maybe we got better at holding folks up throughout the fight because we had them pre-locked then.

James may be giving me a bit too much credit on Reddit, but yeah: positioning...basically your whole overview is flashing since you want to see both hostiles and your own fleet. Does EVE have an epilepsy warning on startup?

Keeping up your fellow logi is of course first priority, and since we have the watchlist, it's easy to spot when they turn on the heat. Not sure how the neuts could be so effective, though, since we had cap up and down (and a bit of combat caps for Kora).

Kora: Did you see their Aug fits? They went 4-1...I wonder what a little bit of EWar would have done to their cap-chain.

[Budda Sereda]

logi had to use ECCM-scripts in the sebos

Why? Originally, in the very beginning of the fight - maybe yes. But as soon as battle begins and no jams are applied to logies I believe it would be reasonable to load scan resolution speed scripts.

[Ann'Dra Padecain]

I am also not sure whether broadcasts were late or not. I felt I spent the first 75% of the battle rebuilding cap-chains and re-locking broadcasts after being repeatedly neuted and jammed. I felt their EWAR was very effective hampering our logi-wing this way.

A comment on James' Reddit post is interesting and something I will try and remember next time: Assist all logi-drones to a drone-bunny to systematically take out EWAR that is attacking the logi-wing. I definitely had the wrong drones (EC-300's which did not make much of a difference breaking lock on me) and probably would have been better served with T2 combats.

[Budda Sereda]

So it was EWar pressure on logies... from whom, mallers themselves? I believe they should be quite far from logies...

[Kora K]

Very nice and clear target calling Kora and a fun fight - thanks Capt Cean and HCOOK.

As I'm still learning CD, I initially burnt away from the main fleet after boosting. A few Mallers aggressed me but logi were on the ball (in fact were awesome throughout). I think I was still in range for boosts but headed back to the main fleet as they had landed at zero and we were in a slugfest.

At various points I was jammed I noticed a thrasher on grid but I don't know what it was doing but I send my drones after it to shoo it away.

I was surprised HCOOK didn't have a CD as we've faced before and am only slightly miffed I didn't get to boosh anything but that was the best fun I've had with a SKIN on for awhile

Just wish I'd recorded it to look at again!

.

I was also sad to not used the CD for something during the fight. When we saw they were bringing AB Maller, I though we would the opportunity to use it for booshing. Either to get in range in case they warped at range, or to boosh away the logis. With them warping all at 0, and us staying on top of everyone, it would have been a huge gamble to try and boosh the logi away without pulling some Thoraxes with you. I was also surprised to not see a CD, but relieved to not have these Mallers and Augorors with even more ehp

A trasher and a punisher where on grid most of the time, but I just ignored them. I don't think they did anything annoying during the fight, and they warped away anyway before we could spread tackle.

I'll ask Captain if he recorded the fight, I'll be interested to see their perspective.

So it was EWar pressure on logies... from whom, mallers themselves? I believe they should be quite far from logies...

The Mallers and Augorors all warped at 0, and they couldn't really pull away with our webs and scrams. We were always 10-12km max from any target. It was the definition of a good old brawl at the sun

[quote="Ann'Dra Padecain]A comment on James' Reddit post is interesting and something I will try and remember next time: Assist all logi-drones to a drone-bunny to systematically take out EWAR that is attacking the logi-wing. I definitely had the wrong drones (EC-300's which did not make much of a difference breaking lock on me) and probably would have been better served with T2 combats.[/quote]

Yeah, I used to tell Logis to assign their whoring drone to me as FC, if they didn't want to deal with them, but people rarely did it. You can always ask during the form-up if someone wants to babysit your drones in fight, and add him in your watchlist.

Can't tell if our pilots broadcast on time, but by the time I got a broadcast locked (logi had to use ECCM-scripts in the sebos), they were already out of shields and dipping towards half-armor. With two reps on them, and the cycle time of armor reps, the Mallers just kept on stripping the paint off. Maybe we got better at holding folks up throughout the fight because we had them pre-locked then.

I am also not sure whether broadcasts were late or not. I felt I spent the first 75% of the battle rebuilding cap-chains and re-locking broadcasts after being repeatedly neuted and jammed. I felt their EWAR was very effective hampering our logi-wing this way.

It seems it's mainly the combination of ECM and their neuting Maller. I really made a mistake not seing that one, the fight would probably have been smoother if we took care of him asap. I also should have asked more info to you guys regarding the situation. I was a too focused on getting Augorors off the field that the tunnel-vision kicked in I guess. Thanks for all the information guys.

In the end, you all survived, as the FC, so op success for me

[Torg Navatin]

So it was EWar pressure on logies... from whom, mallers themselves? I believe they should be quite far from logies...

Quite a handful of EC-300s.

[DeanSherman]

I was one of Thoraxes who died at the start of the fight. I don't think that i broadcasted for reps too late. I saw that i was yellowboxed by Captain Cean only. Well, it was suspicious that possible enemy FC targeted me, but i did not broadcast. Then he used target painter and i broadcasted for reps. Then i took damage and got only 1 cycle of reps from 1 logi and lost the ship.

I see on killmails that some Mallers also used target painters, to mitigate issues with tracking, i guess.
Our 19 Thoraxes all had scram and web. It is good when only 3 Thoraxes left, there are still enough scrams and webs to lock down targets. But may be with some e-war we could take less losses? There was a discussion about Null and Void and tracking in fleet chat before the fight. We could also use some target painters. Or damps, like on BLAP Vexors. Or 1-2 of 19 Thoraxes could switch to dedicated e-war ship, like Celestis or Blackbird. It is 5-10% loss in dps for better utility.

[Adrien Claremont]

Gutted I missed this one. I was working late and by the time I'd managed to escape, everything in game was wrapped up. Sounds like it would have been a great opportunity for me to bring out my smart bombing Celestis.

Hopefully you'll run something similar soon, Kora!

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

A comment on James' Reddit post is interesting and something I will try and remember next time: Assist all logi-drones to a drone-bunny to systematically take out EWAR that is attacking the logi-wing.

Using a drone bunny for logi's drones is a good idea. Also, using those drones to drive away enemy ewar is also a good idea. However, in empire space ( any space which has legality timers) there is a significant problem with drone bunnies for PvP:

When assigned to a bunny, your drones will refuse to engage a target if doing so would create a legality timer on your behalf. This includes a limited engagement timer, suspect timer, or criminal timer. To create one of these timers with drones, you must aggress the target yourself with your drones. Setting your safety to red / yellow makes no difference and neither does setting your drones to aggressive. If it would create a legality timer, you *have* to tell your drones to engage by yourself.

So, although it's a good idea, in LowSec the drone bunny approach has a significant drawback, and doesn't really work.

Edit: here's the Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/comments/6xekwf

- nice write-up James, and like someone else said, way to go observing all that in your first time flying logi! Great awareness.

[Turlough Dominian]

i came
i shot stuff
i died
i got in a noobship
i sneaked onto alot of killmails mwahahahahahaha

good fleet, and the enemy team where good sports for sure o7

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

One thing I noticed looking back at our kill mails was that often I was doing a large portion of the damage to the target that died. Now, before you get the wrong idea, I'm not mentioning this to big myself up - a certain amount of this is simply down to skill points in the gallente cruiser skill, and having T2 blasters. So its simply a matter of time. However, in several cases my damage was double that of the next nearest pilot, and it made me wonder why? And it helped me to learn something.

I realised that a lot of it was probably down to the way I flew my ship. I didn't just anchor on the FC with my AB on. I looked to see what he was broadcasting as primary, and where it was in relation to me and the fleet. I sometimes used my MWD and webs to get right on top of the target before swapping back to my AB. I often used 'keep at range 1000m' to maximise the damage from my blasters. Then I'd check where our anchor was and what was broadcasted as secondary, to see where I'd need to move next.

So, the thing I learned here is that the dual prop on the Thorax is really great for giving individual pilots in the fleet some flexibility in terms of how we fly, being able to get back in to position or on to the next target with our MWD, to pull away from neuts, or maximise transversal using our AB when primaried. I really like this flexibility, and encourage pilots to take advantage of it

Of course, the FC still controls the fight, both in terms of fleet positioning, target calling etc, but there is significant scope here for pilots to anchor their Thorax in a flexible way, and this can make a really big difference. I imagine this is likely true for the dual prop Thorax more than it is with other doctrines.

[Eddie Dante]

We should do this more often, not that i want all my fights arranged, but every once in a while is great
In my ac slasher i initially looked at killing some drones but quickly gave up, considering the slow speed i was killing them and the amount of drones. Switched to the augorors and it seems i actually made myself a bit usefull there. Any ideas if i couldve done anything even more useful would be great.
Learning point for next fleet is to start calling out tackle near the end of the fight though. When spread tackle was called, i had both cpt cean and the rock guy tackled. A second later i heard decklin and someone else had the same idea.

[Captain Cean]

Hey thanks for the nice fight guys.

Like Kora already said a huge fail on our side was the warp in (brain was in travel mode)

To Explain something. Like some people already mention our fleet was compared to the our other fights realy Simple (no CMD or other fancy things). Well we leave Okkamon (dont worry we are still in Black rise) and didn't wanted to move the Mallers cause we dont use them, thats why we brought that simple Fleet.

Yes, the TP are to compensate the Tracking. Our Benefit was our range (You know that Beams are actualy Ok'ish for brawl) we could fast switch the Target and apply our dmg.

And i was actualy suprised that you was able to break trough all our augs. Like you said, you had a massive lose of DPS.
Still good Fight you guys are realy improved