[AAR] These Talwars look like Merlins...

[Breeze One]

Kills and Losses
(18:14:42) Dastryns
Rupture +36.61m

(18:26:10) Agoze, Loes
Merlin -8.26m
Merlin -6.92m

(19:11:24) Pynekastoh
Condor -3.21m
Atron -5.2m
Punisher +9m
Merlin -7.11m
Punisher +5.17m
Merlin -7.68m
Merlin -5.46m
Merlin -5.68m
Merlin -8.04m
Merlin -2.69m
Merlin -6.89m
Merlin -3.64m
Merlin -6.62m
Merlin -5.98m
Merlin -5.69m

(19:34:26) Akidagi
Vengeance +58.23m
Thorax +37.37m

(19:44:10) Akidagi
Atron -6.87m
Tempest +204.92m


Stats
ISK Destroyed: 351,292,381.46
ISK Lost: 95,932,824.47
ISK Delta: 255,359,556.99
Efficiency: 78.549%

Spoiler

Roam members (26) - NOTE: This section is NOT usually included in AARs.
Adrien Claremont
Alf Saissore
Altar Kabal
B'aldrick Aivoras
Breeze One
Brookie Achasse
Burak Oz
DeanSherman
Decklin Quark Reiger
Draco Decius
Eddie Dante
FrankTT2
Gilly Hakaari
Glen Burney
Guiliano Thellere
Kelon Darklight
Kirsi Isrik
Oh' Leeador
Rikali Laru
Tom Endares
Trillian Ituin
Union Pivo
Wokum
Xana McBash
Zana Fehrnah
ashahara

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

This was about the 5th time or so that I've flown logi, and there were certainly a few key moments where I really felt like I was contributing. Landing behind the scouts, to keep them alive as they are holding tackle, and the fleet lands was one of them.

Also, seeing Rikali take gate guns, getting him locked even before he broadcast, and keeping him alive just long enough to warp off was another.

There were also times when I felt very frustrated - wanting to save my fellow pilots, and locking them up to apply reps, but finding them already in armour. Trying desperately to save them. We did manage to catch Wokum the first time he got primaried (I think I locked him up at about 1/4 shield, and he was bleeding through into hull by the time we got him stable. Later on, they swapped back on to Wokum, and I think some of us logi didn't realise it in time. We also caught Oh'Leador (locked him with about 2/3 shield remaining), and he held reps well, at least until they switched to another target, and then back.

However, there were many many more pilots that we lost there, without getting enough reps on them.

One thing that I found interesting in the fight vs HCOOK, was that we outnumbered them, we had 4 logi to their.. none.. but still they managed to kill off many of our Merlins before we could get reps on them. Looking at the loss mails, I see consistently the same 5 punisher pilots on those kills. Didn't they have more Punishers than that? I'm sure they had at least 8-10 pilots on grid. I wonder if they used two groups of Punishers, one group would start aggro first, get the logi's attention, and then the second group would hit hard? Just speculating, but I know there were many times when I would lock up a Merlin to find it already in armour, and dropping fast. I'd get a couple cycles of reps on them, but they would die anyway.

I wonder what we can learn from that, either as logi pilots (were we too far away for our reps to be effective? I know that towards the middle of the fight, I decided to just fly in closer - I think it helped), or were the punishers just focusing their damage far more effectively than we were?

I don't have definite answers to these questions, but I definitely found logi to be exhilerating and a very significant challenge!

[Captain Cean]

One thing that I found interesting in the fight vs HCOOK, was that we outnumbered them, we had 4 logi to their.. none.. but still they managed to kill off many of our Merlins before we could get reps on them. Looking at the loss mails, I see consistently the same 5 punisher pilots on those kills. Didn't they have more Punishers than that? I'm sure they had at least 8-10 pilots on grid. I wonder if they used two groups of Punishers, one group would start aggro first, get the logi's attention, and then the second group would hit hard? Just speculating, but I know there were many times when I would lock up a Merlin to find it already in armour, and dropping fast. I'd get a couple cycles of reps on them, but they would die anyway.

To Clean up the Number we had 7 Punisher 3 Inquisitors, 2 Punisher died at the start of the fight. well there where only 5 punisher left.

Video: Return of the Punisher

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

To Clean up the Number we had 7 Punisher 3 Inquisitors, 2 Punisher died at the start of the fight. well there where only 5 punisher left.

(I Work at the Video Upload should be uploaded in the morning)

Ahh, I was focused on our own broadcasts this time, more so than your fleet - so thanks for the clarification

Very well done you guys!

[Adrien Claremont]

I wonder what we can learn from that, either as logi pilots (were we too far away for our reps to be effective? I know that towards the middle of the fight, I decided to just fly in closer - I think it helped), or were the punishers just focusing their damage far more effectively than we were?

I don't have definite answers to these questions, but I definitely found logi to be exhilerating and a very significant challenge!

I can't say I've done any math, but I'd have thought even at range 4 Bursts should be enough to hold reps against 5 Punishers. In theory, anyway... we know in practice that it's more difficult that it sounds!

As we were haemorrhaging numbers fast often even once I had landed reps on the target, I had fears that the Punishers may have been arty fit so I made a point to try and stay out to about 12-14km (my manual piloting skills leave a lot to be desired) to avoid any scrams/webs and instant death. In hindsight, I don't think HCOOK had the numbers to make Arty Punishers work but much like Decklin, I had other things on my mind than numbers. I'm not sure if 12-14km was an appropriate range or if I should have gone in closer?

With basically 2:1 in numbers and fighting at our ideal range, there was nothing else Breeze could have done himself to win this fight in my eyes. We know our reps could hold against their DPS, as we saved those people who broadcast early enough. HCOOK were very good at switching targets. We had Glen stable at one point in very low structure, I saw someone else take damage so I switched two reps to the new target (I forget now who it was) only to watch Glen then be primaried again and finished off. I think a similar situation happened to B'aldrick. More often than not though, by the time I had someone locked up they were in low low shields, if not already in to armour, which makes me think that the majority of people were only broadcasting once they were taking damage (rather than when they were yellowboxed, as discussed in the pre-fleet newbro speech).

Final thought of the day - having to re-apply heat to modules when they decycle is a pain!

[Eddie Dante]

As i hear it, people should indeed be calling for reps earlier. (this is one of those important things that gets so very little practice) Its also one of my own mistakes this fleet: warped of and back when i saw 4 of them yellowboxing me. Realized we had logi a few secs later.

Besides that, it was a pretty smooth fleet for me. Think i was pretty on top of the intell, managed to call out most ships that crosswarped me and jumped into the fleet. Happy with the hyperion i managed to catch up with. Not sure, but I think i also managed to decloak the DST, shame he warped of before i could point him. Finally, had a little more contact with the FC about where he needed scouts, which greatly reduced unnescessary warping.

Things to improve:
- Improve general ship knowledge, this is a big one for me. For most of the ships i have no idea what theyre capable of :-/
- keep an eye on default orbit ranges more. I usually need to switch between 500m and 17km for either scram or point.
- Perhaps take more initiative vs lone frigs in plexes? Think we may give them too much time if i verify with FC whether i should tackle them.
- learn to pronounce 'magus'

edit: also had some probs with broadcasted targets not showing or something, so my target switching was baaaaad. Shame i didnt record :s

[Trillian Ituin]

To Clean up the Number we had 7 Punisher 3 Inquisitors, 2 Punisher died at the start of the fight. well there where only 5 punisher left.

(I Work at the Video Upload should be uploaded in the morning)

Ahh, I was focused on our own broadcasts this time, more so than your fleet - so thanks for the clarification

With only 5 Punishers in the field, I guess the task of HCOOK's logi wing would be far simpler? Simply lock all the targets all the time. That is kinda of a dilemma: you certainly want more ships in a fight, but it also makes calling for rep in time more crucial, which admittedly takes a lot of practice to get right. I know I called for rep too late (again)

[Laser Skaron]

I wonder what we can learn from that, either as logi pilots (were we too far away for our reps to be effective? I know that towards the middle of the fight, I decided to just fly in closer - I think it helped), or were the punishers just focusing their damage far more effectively than we were?

I don't have definite answers to these questions, but I definitely found logi to be exhilerating and a very significant challenge!

I can't say I've done any math, but I'd have thought even at range 4 Bursts should be enough to hold reps against 5 Punishers. In theory, anyway... we know in practice that it's more difficult that it sounds!

Well, math time :). I took one of our blaster punisher fits, it turns out it spews out 180 DPS with antimatter, aka ~900 DPS for five of them assuming perfect skills and projection.

Then, I grabbed one of our merlin variants and projected 4 of our bursts, it seems it receives 817 EHP/sec assuming perfect skills and such.

So, in theory, we can't hold 5 punishers with 4 bursts (especially when operating in falloff, and with less than perfect skills, and less than perfect rep application.

My real question is how you couldn't break 3 inquisitors with what, 12-15 merlins? I'm curious how well comms worked on our side, and what can we do better to improve damage application throughout the fleet?

[Altar Kabal]

In the past I've sometimes been either too late calling for reps or sometimes premature in suggesting I don't need them and have been trying to get better at it. In this case I was never primary though.

I was however stopping guns and switching targets as requested and it was easy to see that we were splitting damage all over the place. I also found myself quite badly positioned during the fight and struggling to keep in reasonable range of the enemy as the fight evolved and hence not contributing anything like full DPS.

[Eddie Dante]

Well, math time .

Did you take into account resistances of the merlin thats getting shot?

If you look at the two punisher kills, you see a big spread in percentage damage dealt by all unistas. This would suggest part of the fleet dealt way less dps then theoretically possible. Should explain why their logi held. (Ofcourse this is part of being in the uni: lower skills, less experience = less dps)

Looking at the killed merlins I see the punishers a bit closer together, percentagewise.

I think we didnt shoot their logi ships, correct? I assume they were out of our range? If not, would it have been better to kill them first?

[Laser Skaron]

Well, math time :).

Did you take into account resistances of the merlin thats getting shot?

Yes, ofc, all pyfa math takes resistances into account. However I've played with all V characters and only using one of our T2 merlins. I am perfectly aware our SP places us in a worse situation than my math actually illustrates :). Using "T2 fit max alpha characters" for both the Merlin and the Burst (I know that doesn't make sense, but I'm a tiny bit lazy to grab meta versions of the fits for testing), you get ~734 EHP/sec reps, and I know we have pilots with lower skills than that.

I did make a tiny mistake, we're ideally repping a tiny bit more as merlins have a small EM hole, and that doesn't impact hybrid guns. Actual theoretical repping power against hybrid guns was 826 EHP/sec instead of 817. Still not enough to hold.

PS. With 2 webs and a scram applied, both the merlins and the punishers would project dps almost perfectly in brawl range.

[DeanSherman]

I was logi in this fleet, first time shield logi Burst. My skills Minmatar Frigate and Shield Emission Systems are at III. I noticed that Burst have higher speed but less maneuverability than Merlin, i don't know how to pilot to use this differencies, most of the fights i was just anchored on other logis. Next time I'd probably change Nanofiber Internal Structure to Signal Amplifier to get faster locking time.
Finally, i set up different colors for different broadcast types, it helps a lot.

[Rikali Laru]

Also, seeing Rikali take gate guns, getting him locked even before he broadcast, and keeping him alive just long enough to warp off was another.

That was awesome, thnx. I pre-activated everything, turned on mwd and burned for him as he appeared slightly out of my heated scram/web range. Not the best thing to do when you then immediately want to warp off from gate guns I did get the scram/web on him (sadly it didn't end up useful), but it almost cost me an early loss, until Decklin the Savior arrived to keep me intact