Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

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Korr'Tanas
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Korr'Tanas »

Ulrik Elristan wrote:About classes and stuff, I do agree this could have been done. Will be next time, assuredly. The people organizing this most likely were too busy to do this, and too focused to even think about it in the first place, though. But now that we know, I'm sure Dunar and his minions will jump on the next opportunity to cook up a symposium :lol:
As nice as that would be, anyone who organizes an operation like this will almost certainly overlook that aspect. Not because they don't care, but because they have so much other stuff to worry about. WH evictions are naturally very tedious, much more so than any other kind of operation I can think of and the uni simply doesn't do them very often (which is also the reason for some of the issues muzzy brought up, thank you for sharing your point of view btw), so by the time the next one comes around this particular one and the lessons learned from it might well be ancient history. That being said, it would be great to have troop education and entertainment be part of any future WH eviction plans. :wink:
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Shar Thrityh
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Shar Thrityh »

Korr'Tanas wrote:Not because they don't care, but because they have so much other stuff to worry about. WH evictions are naturally very tedious, much more so than any other kind of operation I can think of and the uni simply doesn't do them very often
That's true and it would be impossible for Titus to also start worrying about the in-flight entertainment of all of those pilots. Luckily, we have an entire department filled with people that specialize in keeping pilot's brains challenged with new information. Maybe someone from the education department can jump in to help fill the dead moments by planning some classes during these times! (with of course the caveat that these classes can be interrupted at any moment due to activations or other circumstances)

But I think that Dunar already said as much: it's something they'll incorporate in the next op, if feasible.

Good feedback, Muzzy!
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Fergus Echerie »

Very good feedback by Muzzy and certainly shared by myself and probably others who are new to all this.

I have managed 2 fleets since joining, unfortunately from my perspective this one and the POCO bash, so not the best introduction into the "excitement " of fleets.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Ulrik Elristan »

There are fleets almost every single day. If you're looking for exciting fleets, join a Lowsec roam, a HSC wormhole daytrip, you know, stuff that happens on a daily basis.
“Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win” - Sun Tzu.


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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Fergus Echerie »

I know, timings been difficult, just my luck which ones I can make.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Yuri Titov »

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@Muzzy Chuck @Fergus Echerie

so what you're saying is that someone has put an enormous amount of effort, over many days, into locating an enemy occupied system, scouting it, organising fits, travel fleets, taking leadership of the operation which ultimately was a huge success (even tho Ersin tried his best to ruin op sec on this :D ) and resulted in an eviction - meaning full destruction of everything in the hole which probably took months for these guys to setup. Gave you - an inexperienced pilot who in a serious combat situation would contribute not a great deal at best - a chance, completely free of charge, to participate in this rare event (rare not only by Uni standard btw) and see with your own eyes what people in this game are prepared to do for their corp and assets they defend or attack i.e. try to stare a wormhole down for hours on end just to kick over someone's sandcastle BUT the experience was ruined for you because of poor quality of in house entertainment, comms banter not meeting your standard of intellectual conversation and not getting a cookie at the end?

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I think the learning outcome you've missed is actually quite clearly spelled out in the last paragraph of Titus' AAR, perhaps you should reread that.

On the other hand, maybe a Q&A session on Mumble, a couple of days after the op would be a good idea? Where all those too shy to ask what wormhole critin' is all about during the op could have their questions answered.... food for thought.


PS
I bet if you guys ever got on 'Come dine with me' you'd be giving everyone a 2!
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Dunar Dolorgiet »

I think we covered that particular aspect of the op and it's aftermath in enough detail to enable everyone to form an informed opinion and picked up a few valuable pointers for potentially future ones. With that being said I would invite everyone to continue the discussion in the calm manner that we are used to.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Fergus Echerie »

Why I joined
EVE University is a neutral, non-profit training corporation in EVE Online that exists to help teach players about EVE. With a primary focus on helping new players, EVE University has a well deserved reputation as the best place to get started in New Eden
Getting abuse for daring to have an opinion and express it - not why I joined.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Ernesto Guevarti »

/me waves bye bye
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Muzzy Chuck »

It's unfortunate that by having reservations and not going with the general flow to say everything was 100% wonderful I appear to have ruffled some fragile feathers, but I didn't do it in order to attract personal insults from a small number of people who clearly found some of my words too difficult to grasp. I'm sure the net result of that will be for slightly less honest feedback from other people about some things in future - congratulations.

Thank you to those of you who have taken the time to consider their replies, whether they were in general agreement or not, and thanks to those who took my words in the manner they were intended.
Apologies for inadvertently hijacking your AAR, Titus. I hope I didn't offend.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Conci Furiram »

Muzzy Chuck wrote:It's unfortunate that by having reservations and not going with the general flow to say everything was 100% wonderful I appear to have ruffled some delicate feathers, but I didn't do it in order to attract personal insults from a small number of people who clearly found some of my words too difficult to grasp. I'm sure the net result of that will be for slightly less honest feedback from other people about some things in future - congratulations.
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Your concerns were heard and addressed by multiple people. Honest feedback is always welcomed. Insisting your misunderstanding is "too difficult to grasp" after being told several times, from both uni members and alumni, that you have incorrectly interpreted the firesale is why you're getting the response you are seeing. Take the explanations and learn from your mistaken logic.

I direct you to White 0rchid's and Yuri Titov's posts if you missed the explanations.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Rezda Nardieu »

I feel part of the problem was expectations. A wormhole eviction, in my mind, is a wonderful and rare thing to be a part of. The stupid and irrelevant comms banter is a part of it, the looking at a wormhole until your eyes bleed is a part of it, the getting to know people from all over the place that maybe you have even flown with many times but have never really talked to. Ultimately for me it's about working together to achieve something that no-one could do on their own.

People that were not in the loop at all and who could not read between the lines of the original announcement post did not know what they were in for, and their expectations for an 'op' were sometimes not met. This was unavoidable and I'm sorry that it happened.

As for educational experiences, maybe you were not on the same times that I was, but I learned a lot about the new T3 changes and fitting options, hunting, cyno baiting and a few other things I was happy to ask about. The Uni has plenty of formal educational opportunities but rarely has something that gets people together in this way where you can talk to people on comms about whatever you feel like. I think you may have missed out on one of the best educational experiences you are likely to get in the uni.

As for the practical exercises you asked about, I think you miss the point of hole control. Hole control in wormholes is not just about being in the hole, it's about making sure nothing jumps into the hole with you. You can't be flying around having 1v1's you need to be sitting on the hole. It's boring, until it isn't then you are screwed if you were not paying attention. Until you have seen it go from all quiet to 30 T3 cruisers and logi in 30 seconds you may think it's not necessary.

I'm sorry you felt hard done by Muzzy and Fergus. That was honestly not anyones intention. I hope you understand the amount of effort that went into organising this, and that while it's fine to voice your opinion on what you like and don't like, people might feel annoyed when after all the effort that they personally put in you say it wasn't good enough. They worked for months and months and all you really had to do was log on if you wanted to and log off again if you were bored. Honestly, why did you stay logged on if you were as bored as you say you were.

My suggestion is that you did learn something very valuable from this operation, wormhole life is probably not for you. I wouldn't join a wormhole corp if I was you :)
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Junmei Hucel-Ge »

This was my first major fleet action, other than picket as an incursion team. I enjoyed myself despite the fact that I really had no more active role then acting as logi for the tacklers. I did learn a lot about logi, and flying the osprey in a fleet cap chain - something I hope to do again. Support roles are fun if not hugely exciting when there's nothing happening. I really enjoyed the banter, the side discussions, and other tings as the nights dragged on and people got tired and punchy. I learned a lot, and picked up more jargon. After a month of playing (yes I can potentially become a freshman tomorrow) I am starting to at least understand what the HECK you guys are talking about when you go on about cap chains and logi and dps :)

Thanks for the fun op - I can only imagine how much planning, spywork, and logistics went into this. I thought you did a great job of fitting ships that all levels of players can mess with and fly, and appreciate the many tips I picked up on fits and why certain things were set up certain ways for this particular operation. It was somewhat amusing to hear people question one fit or another and then listen to someone else point out that well yes, but with THAT fit you would be [taken out by towers, detected in 2 seconds flat, out of cap in a minute, etc].... You obviously thought through the fits very thoroughly and I wouldn't beat yourself up about not using Orcas right away or whatever. Learning and adapting in a command role is what that role is all about and you handled it well.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Ersin Oghuz »

Please lets be polite to each other even we have opposite ideas. We can explain ourselves in a polite manner I believe and all feedback is good.
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Re: Every day seems to drag-on - The OP Chorogon AAR

Post by Budda Sereda »

I read few times people mentioned: you need to stare at WH.

In fact, you don't need to. I believe there are two things can be done as an alternative:

1. Being in the j-system, you 'look-at' WH, zoom in at max level, make sure you hear environmental sounds and you can bring another window on top so you will ALWAYS hear if somebody jumps. You don't need to watch it, you can do almost anything else (make sure you will hear a sound of activation though).

Somebody will raise concern: that could be too late. To not be too late:

2. Get another character into k-space, sitting cloaked 150+km from the hole. This alt needs to see local and identify spikes. This requires a bit more concentration than just listening, but still, for freshly discovered and critted WH this is enough.

IF: if somebody jumps out of j-space through the hole: you need to start worrying and really turn-on alarm mode, see local, dscan, etc. But usually, your fleet must roll the hole immediately and you go back to relaxed listening to j-space environmental sounds and watching local by your alt.

To WH gurus: please let me know if my way of 'watching the hole' has serious weaknesses.
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