[AAR] NSC Combat Interceptors 11/07/2017

[Adrien Claremont]

A relatively short AAR however it was a really fun, and successful fleet. We dodged a couple of sizeable fleets, practiced the concept of shotgunning, and mounted a really fun raid into Horde ratting pocket.

Numbers were a little lower than I wanted (I'd have liked around 30) however we still had the critical mass to take down VNIs, which meant the game was on.

Spoiler

Adrien Claremont - FC
Altar Kabal
Anoop Knight
DeanSherman
Decklin Quark Reiger - 2IC
FrankTT2
Glen Burney
Hirmuolio Pine
Krywen Valarion
Luca Goh
Magic Anninen
Oh' Leeador
Reise Amatin
SMBEHJ
Trillian Ituin
Union Pivo
Zarquu Fussuhfusus - Interdictor
Zetetic Elenchus
ashahara

The route was relatively simple. Burn through Syndicate, practice in Cloud Ring, raid in Fade. On our way through Syndicate, we came across an INIT cruiser fleet that chased us through maybe ten, if not fifteen system. Our only loss was Dean right at the start of the fleet. Sorry Dean.

(18:34:32) 31-MLU
Atron -4.04m
Capsule -0.01m

There was very little that the INIT fleet could do to us, so we ignored them for the most part and started to practice shotgunning in Cloud Ring. Initially we practiced in every system we jumped to before changing the pace to only systems that had NPCs on Dotlan. The guys managed to land on grid with a VNI twice, however both times we only just missed out on securing the kill. With things now running smoothly and everyone knowing what the plan was, we pushed on into Fade.

We made best speed up to Horde's ratting pocket and began to shotgun through it. We didn't catch anything in C4C-Z4, however we did catch two VNIs at the same time in GME. We took them both down with the fleet split almost equally between the two. From there we pushed into X5-UME and just missed another. Next stop was over to MPPA-A were we secured our third VNI. Just as it hit structure, a lone Cormorant landed on our bubble. He was primaried once the VNI was disposed and we managed to kill him just as the Horde response fleet landed. Unfortunately I think that Cormorant kill cost us a Taranis is return, who was tackled by the response fleet as we scattered. Zarquu did a brilliant job of getting our Sabre off the field in low low armour.

(19:21:41) GME-PQ
Vexor Navy Issue +149.31m
Crusader -40.65m
Capsule +0.01m
Vexor Navy Issue +101.84m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule +0.01m

(19:27:33) MPPA-A, GME-PQ
Vexor Navy Issue +84.99m
Cormorant +13.14m
Taranis -42.81m
Capsule -0.01m

Not wanting to hang around and conscious that smartbombers are always an option, I wanted to get the fleet out of the pocket now that Horde were on to us. Two Rokhs had moved to the C4C gate in GME, but we were able to moonwalk past them and out of the pocket. The fleet moved to ROIR-Y in Pure Blind to dock at a NPC station and take a bio while Decklin stayed behind to help out Frank, who had been trapped in the GME pocket. Eventually Horde managed to catch Frank on the hell bubbled gate in C4C. It was a really good effort though, thanks Decklin.

(19:47:21) L-C3O7
Condor -9.65m

After our short bio, we decided to call it a night and make our way home (it was 27 jumps back to PC9).

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 349,300,600.37
ISK Lost: 97,180,670.09
ISK Delta: 252,119,930.28
Efficiency: 78.234%

The Good

Practiced and learnt the art of shotgun fleets successfully
Comms were disciplined throughout
FCs comms didn't die for a change

The Bad

Content was sparse throughout the majority of the roam

While the AAR doesn't really say much I think, certainly the stand point of learning a different tactic to what most guys are used to flying, we had a really successful fleet. I think everyone understood what we were trying to do, and that paid off with the kills within the GME pocket. I was disappointed we didn't find more on our way through Cloud Ring, but then again I don't know what I was expecting as every time we've been there it has been dead. One thought is that the next time we do this, we stage close to and raid into Providence.

For those that took part, this fleet will count towards your NSC CCI participation.

Please comment if you have any feedback and also please fill out the FCC fleet feedback form if you have the time. https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 8&t=104019

Thanks for coming out to play guys and I hope everyone enjoyed the fleet. We'll aim to do this again soon.

Cheers

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

Decklin stayed behind to help out Frank, who had been trapped in the GME pocket. Eventually Horde managed to catch Frank on the hell bubbled gate in C4C. It was a really good effort though, thanks Decklin.

Yeah, it was so close. Got through the hell-bubble, but they had a dictor ready and waiting on the other side

[Magic Anninen]

It was my first combat inty fleet, sweet. You are fast as hell and don't care about bubbles. What if we could reach 40+ numbers!?!?

Great experience, nice kills, good FCing.

cheers
Magic

[Luca Goh]

I found this to be an incredibly fun roam and am really glad you arranged such a fleet, Adrien. The blitzkrieg tactics are really fun to fly, and because the fleet is one of constant activity - jump, warp to anomaly, look for a target, warp away if it isn't there, tackle it if it is, warp to fleetmate if they find a target, if nothing warp to outgate and jump, rinse & repeat - even a slow night of content feels much less so than usual, because you're always in motion and have the prospect of engaging a target. Poking a bear like Horde and landing a few kills on their turf with little ability to retaliate on their part was a particular brand of fun I rarely experience as a newbro: the feeling of having the upper hand!

This was for me also a great first null sec fleet, given the particular mechanics involved are unique to null. And it was nice to take advantage of my only-recently-trained interceptors. It's got me really keen to fly on another NSC fleet again soon.

I have to say I felt very bad for those flying T1 frigates. The bubble immunity made the difference between easy survival and the wrong side of a kill mail several times. Looking back at your fleet ad I don't think you could have been any more candid in what abilities are lost in not flying an interceptor, so they'd been clearly warned. It was still tough to move at ease while a fleetmate got harassed. Kudos to those who tried to help the T1 frigs make it out in one piece.

Anyway, nothing but good things to say. Apologies for the lack of constructive criticism. Hopefully we get bigger numbers next time around and can be a bit more ambitious in our targets! Although it didn't seem as though we avoided too many engagements because of our lower fleet size (unless I'm not remembering something?).

[Adrien Claremont]

Anyway, nothing but good things to say. Apologies for the lack of constructive criticism. Hopefully we get bigger numbers next time around and can be a bit more ambitious in our targets! Although it didn't seem as though we avoided too many engagements because of our lower fleet size (unless I'm not remembering something?).

Glad you enjoyed the fleet, Luca. We'll definitely do it again and hopefully some other FCs will take them out too.

Yeah, you are right in what you are saying. Luckily we only found targets that we could take on with the number we had, the only difference is that numbers would mean that we'd kill them faster (and therefore get away before their response fleet landed, for example) or we'd have been able to catch more targets by being able to spread out further.

I think we'd have all been really disappointed if we had managed to catch something juicy like a Rattlesnake but had to release him back into the wild because we didn't have the DPS to take him down.

[Budda Sereda]

I think we'd have all been really disappointed if we had managed to catch something juicy like a Rattlesnake but had to release him back into the wild because we didn't have the DPS to take him down.

What would be a typical nul-sec ratting RattleSnake fits. Anybody?
But I guess it should not be more than 1k. Even 1k sounds too much for ratting. Each combat ceptor has DPS in range 130-180, self-rep. Fleet of even 15 ceptors should project around 2k well applied DPS.
And if so: web and kill drones, survive HMs, warp out if can't tank, repair and come back. And kill it. The only problem could be a response fleet, but that would be even more fun: more content!

And yeah, I agree with dynamic of ceptors roaming... keep you engaged.

Question to Adrien: I see you have few pilots killed in T1 ships, last was caught in a bubble. Was it a single case? Did you have any other bubble on your way which made difficult moving in t1 ships? What if you had 10 ceptors and 10 T1 frigates... Do you think that would still work well?

[Raido Kudonen]

TL;DR: It takes approximately 2.5 minutes of focused fire (with Budda's hypothetical 15-ceptor gankfleet) to break a standard AFK-fit Rattler, not counting any time spent shooting drones - be very careful of what reinforcements such a ship can call in. If it's a bait Rattler, gtfo because you're going to welp your entire fleet. (You know it's a bait Rattler if anybody in your fleet gets neuted or grappled; some PvE Rattlers still fit rapid heavies so that's not a reliable indicator.)

Background and fits:

Nullsec ratting Rattlers vary quite a bit depending on how at-the-keyboard the pilot wants to play them, and whether the pilot wants to be pvp bait or just maximize site clearing times. Here are a couple sample fits; they're designed for using in the drone lands but would work equally well in Angels/Serp/Gurista space (would need changes in EM/therm ratting areas).

Afk rattle:

Spoiler

[Rattlesnake, drone rat active cheap]

Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Federation Navy Drone Damage Amplifier
Damage Control II
Ballistic Control System II
Capacitor Flux Coil II

Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Pith X-Type Large Shield Booster
100MN Afterburner II
Shield Boost Amplifier II

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Precision Cruise Missile
Drone Link Augmentor II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II


Praetor II x2
Acolyte II x5
Praetor II x2
Gecko x1

Tanks ~850ehp/s cold, cap stable. Heated tank ~1250ehp/s, lasts over 15 minutes. Damage doesn't apply well to combat ceptors, but this fit is designed to tank while the pilot yells for support.

Bait rattle:

Spoiler

[Rattlesnake, bait]

Damage Control II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Sentient Omnidirectional Tracking Enhancer
Ballistic Control System II

Large Micro Jump Drive
Gist C-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Republic Fleet Large Cap Battery
Heavy Stasis Grappler II
Warp Disruptor II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800

Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Rapid Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Missile
Heavy Energy Neutralizer II

Large Core Defense Capacitor Safeguard II
Large Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer II
Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer II


Praetor II x2
Curator II x2


Caldari Navy Inferno Heavy Assault Missile x1000
Navy Cap Booster 800 x25

This tanks considerably less than the afk fit, because it's designed to sit 100km off the warp-in and blap rats with sentries. The drone DPS is comparable to an Ishtar by itself, so the missiles can be reserved for clearing annoying frigate spawns and for actual PvP. Heated tank is around 700ehp/s.

Analysis:

While the "AFK Rattler" isn't particularly fearsome by itself vs. combat ceptors, note that it's got around 115k-127k ehp (depending on heated invulns) + the reps. So if you have 2k dps, your effective dps (your applied dps - the target's reps) is around 800. Assuming heat issues will prevent continuous overheating of invuls, we can say that the ehp end up around 120k. This means you will have to be shooting for a minimum of 150 seconds to break the rattler, plus any time you spend shooting drones instead of the Rattler (if you go back and forth, note that the Rattler will of course be repairing heat damage and boosting shields anytime you shoot the drones, partially resetting your kill timer).

An example:

Spoiler

Eventually, if not supported, the Rattler will eventually die; if you're very conscientious about clearing drones and warping out to a ping when yellowboxed, you can get the kill with basically no losses. However, it's still pretty risky, and not just because the Rattler's 7kish volley can delete ceptors that get dumb. Consider the following killfeed, which happened when I was running a 10/10 and bumped off a structure while aligning to a safe just as the Curses warped in. The hostile gang was optimized to hunt down and kill 10/10 runners; they put Natasha's Curse in system with a "clean" (i.e. doesn't appear on killboards) alt in a Helios, then put out combats. Since the Curse doesn't appear on dscan and the hostile combats mean that warping to a safe can get you scanned down without the benefit of acceleration gates, site runners will often align to a station and try to get an alt in to ensure that there are no bubbles anchored on the station grid. Once you get the Curse in and land a point, the two Curses can neut out the site runner, the Sabre bubbles, and they bring in the Mach as quickly as possible for additional DPS.

But here's the thing: With just drone DPS and cruise launchers, I killed one of the Curses and the Sabre, and the other Curse had to warp out in <20% structure. Had I not flown like a panicked muppet and burned out my launchers, I would have killed both Curses and either killed the Sabre or forced it off grid, and then likely warped away to safety. And that's against a gang that can actually shut down a Rattler's tank.

Now that you've learned how to calculate your DPS vs their DPS, let's look at the PvP-fit Rattler. On the one hand, it tanks less raw dps than the PvE version, because fewer midslots are devoted to tank; its cold tank is 106k ehp buffer with 505ehp/s reps; hot tank is 111k ehp buffer with 709 ehp/s reps. On the other hand, it has a lot of cap booster charges, can neut out a ceptor's entire cap in one neut cycle, and can grapple and point things. If you get grappled and neuted by this thing in a ceptor, you. Will. Die. In fact, while your 15-ceptor gang can break through reps and kill the Rattler in only 85 seconds, that comparison of outgoing DPS versus target reps misses a crucial fact: the Rattler is going to mow through your ceptor gang at the rate of approximately one ceptor every five or six seconds, which means your outgoing DPS is a linear function steadily approaching zero rather than a constant. (Realistically, the Rattler's main constraint in killing your ceptors is lock speed; even if the pilot immediately delocks all rats and starts locking you when you land on grid, it still takes some few seconds to lock up ceptors with a battleship and you'll get a head start where "only" drone DPS is incoming.)

An example:

Spoiler

About a year ago, I grabbed some NSC folks and went on a roam through a WH connection to Delve. (This was before the Imperium had occupied Delve.) The AAR can be found here, and the relevant killfeed is here. What you need to know for background is that the fleet was approximately 15 ships, with DPS in T3Ds and assault frigates, and with 3 shield logi frigates. In other words, it was much better suited to actually fighting on grid than a combat ceptor fleet. And we got roflstomped through logi reps.

Don't fight bait Rattlers, kids.

A Coda:

The fits above are basically reasonable baseline fits, the cost of which a pilot could reasonably hope to recoup over the life of the ship. (For example, the "AFK" cruise fit makes its cost back after 4-5 successful drone 10/10s.) But what if someone had a lot of ISK, liked to bait out fights and then bravely take on the blob have a cyno alt and a carrier or FAX on standby, and in short was maybe a little bit of a jerk?



(Not shown: Still using cheap T2 Praetors because they track better than a Gecko; using Antipharmakon Thureo to increase shield reps without booster drawbacks; cloaky cyno linksrepgu [links not currently applied]; cap alts.)

[Budda Sereda]

Thanks Radio. Clearly I was not considering baiting RSs.

Yet, never not take a bait, right?

Summary for me: take the bait, but run away if grappled. Yeah, you do need to commit at least a few ceptor to land scram, but that's a part of the game...

[Adrien Claremont]

...Question to Adrien: I see you have few pilots killed in T1 ships, last was caught in a bubble. Was it a single case? Did you have any other bubble on your way which made difficult moving in t1 ships? What if you had 10 ceptors and 10 T1 frigates... Do you think that would still work well?

Hey Budda. Sorry the late reply, I don't get much time to play on a weekend.

Raido summed up the Rattlesnake question better than I ever could (thank you Raido!). For me, I know that I've personally tried to take down a Rattlesnake with a 30 man T1 fleet and we couldn't break him, so some quick napkin math in my head said that we'd have no chance in a 20 man gang.

I don't see why using 10 interceptors and 10 frigates wouldn't work, but you'd be surprised at the number of Unibros who can fly interceptors, so you should still have a much higher ratio. I think out of the 19 pilots we had in the end, only 3 or 4 were in frigates. We lost one at the very start to the INIT gang, however throughout the rest of the time that INIT was chasing us we didn't loose anyone. We also didn't loose anyone getting past the hell bubble into the GME pocket and it was only the one frigate that we lost getting out (which we nearly managed to save too!)

The GME pocket is always bubbled like that, so it shouldn't be a surprise when you hit the bubble and you can warn guys off what to expect and what they should be doing. It's also a great sight for newbro who haven't had much experience with bubble. Outside of that obvious entrance system though, we didn't come across any drag bubbles until we came close to 7RM (Horde staging) so you wouldn't really have noticed that much difference between the T1 frigates and the interceptors as we moved from system to system. In the future I might look to take a roam out into Providence which I believe may be even less bubbled, which would further lend to T1 frigates being able to join the fun without too much of a handicap.

You should definitely give combat interceptors a spin, Budda. They are a great change of pace.

[Trillian Ituin]

It's also a great sight for newbro who haven't had much experience with bubble. ... In the future I might look to take a roam out into Providence which I believe may be even less bubbled, which would further lend to T1 frigates being able to join the fun without too much of a handicap.

Indeed, Adrien. It is a sight to be seen. The null bubbles were always very frightening for me. After this fleet, and since I was in a baby ceptor, they are more like 'meh, only bubbles' now