[Fleet] BLAP Vexors 23/06/17

[SketchyManDan Williams]

Ohhhhhh man, This one did not go as well as I had planed. I think I had got a little over confident after flying so mahy frigate fleets, that I underestimated what it takes to FC a fleet of Vexors.
We managed have a cyno drop on us first, get kitted by a much smaller fleet after, as well as ahve a fun little skirmish with another Uni fleet towards the end!

Huge thanks for the advice that was given during the fleet, it's always welcome! Even more so as this was my first Vexor/Cruiser fleet. There was a lot more to think about in these ships (Guns, Damps, and drones) than the usual frigates I've been flying, and it's definitly a lot trickier than i though to manage the drones while trying to warp people out of a fight.

I'll update each fight with more details soon
Edit - It looks like some kills from a different fleet ended up on this report, fixing this atm

Fleet Members

Spoiler

Ailise Thellere
Alf Saissore
Anoop Knight
BatFC
Cyus Erata
Dan Egdald
DeanSherman
Decklin Quark Reiger
DonkeyPunch Udan
Dredd Valentine
Felix Jugo
Gatt2111
Guiliano Thellere
Ishaan Aldent
Kanuza
Muzzy Chuck
Rebulah Conundrum
Sioban Mernher
SketchyManDan Williams
Tsuwen Sun
Union Pivo
Wokum
Xana McBash
Yuri Levnik
Z0X Ambrye
Zarquu Fussuhfusus

We left from Stacmon, and not much was found until we hit Nennamaila, here was where I first experienced how the lack of speed a Vexor has compared to a frigate can impact what we can catch. Scout had found a Slicer at a plex, but I was unable to get the Vangaurd and rest of the fleet to them in time.
(22:16:10) Nennamaila
Condor -3.3m
Capsule -0.01m


Ahhh, my first Cyno drop! If i remember correctly it was fitted to a Battleship, which caught me off gaurd, when I've seen them happen to other fleets, it's been fitted to a smaller ship???. Our scout had let us know he was jumping through, we locked and went full DPS on it, but the cyno came down, and I had to call everyone to scatter.
It was mentioned that to avoid or maybe be more prepared for this would be to keep an eye of the corp the pilot was a part of, seems like I need to start watching this a lot more now . Luckily, a small number of losses here considering at least 2 carriers and a dreadnaught had jumped in!
(22:32:00) Nennamaila, Hikkoken
Imperial Navy Slicer +33.93m
Vexor -36.98m
Vexor -30.76m
Capsule -0.66m

I can't remember what happened here...
(22:46:14) Okkamon
Algos -8.22m
Capsule -0.01m


This was a fun little fight, but again, I found it hard to manage the Vexors against the faster ships we were against. We had Navy Ospreys kiting our drones, a Phantasm, as well as a few other frigates goading us out to try and pick a few of us off. I think I should've just left this fight earlier, we were against ships that could easily burn out of our range, and ourV exor fits were AB and point, so we couldn't slow them or catch them up.
(23:04:51) Asakai, Okkamon
Talwar +19.51m
Atron -7.43m
Kitsune -39.44m
Condor -3.55m
Vexor -30.07m
Capsule -0.01m
Capsule -0.01m
Vexor -17.53m
Capsule -0.01m

To Ichoriya!
We head back to Ichoriya for a reship, we lost a few and gained a few members here.

Our new scout found a Raven at a Large, Tasty! But he was too far off the beacon by the time the Vanguard landed, and we lost our scout, quick reship in Ich!
(23:40:19) Nennamaila
Imperial Navy Slicer -26.39m


We passed this thrasher on our initial pass through here, so we had to say goodbye before we leave
(23:48:14) Nennamaila
Thrasher +9.69m


So, this was interesting. It was an arranged fight with another fleet flying NPSI, and it had a few people who had left my fleet not too long ago which seemed a bit sketchy as they know our whole setup but hey! It was on our way home and they were on the gate we needed to pass to get back so either way we were going to fight!
Deckiln sent me a message giving us the heads up they were up for a fight, so we met and the medium and engaged!

It was a fun fight and quite the learning experience, but I immediately messed up the warp in... I mistakenly brought the logi with the main fleet and they were the initial targets, Sorry about that logi!
We had some intel from our scout on they composition, and our first target was their Deacon, but the Svipul was in range at first so he went first. The Deacon had a lot more tank than I expected and ended up taking a lot longer to drop than I hoped, and because of my bad warp in, all our logi were down, along with 2 DD at this point.
It appears that a few pilots in my fleet were shooting targets that were not the primary, as another fleet member tried to call primary on a target we shouldn't of even had locked at the time (Remember guys, FC calls primary, don't shoot anyone else, and definitley don't try calling primaries when not FC as it just causes confusion for the rest of the fleet), but I don't think this would've helped either way as we couldn't seem to break the reps on the other fleet (Looking forward to see their AAR, I'm not sure where their reps were coming from)

The other fleet were kind enough to target me last, so we stayed for the whole fight. All ships down we warped away for the flight home.

(00:05:52) Vlillirier
Svipul +50.73m
Augoror -12.17m
Griffin +2.65m
Augoror -21.34m
Augoror -21.39m
Vexor -27.88m
Vexor -18.12m
Deacon +55.91m
Vexor -17.14m
Condor -1.74m
Vexor -23.41m
Vexor -16.67m
Vexor -22.24m
Vexor -46.59m
Vexor -27.45m
Vexor -17.75m
Vexor -22.75m


Stats
ISK Destroyed: 443,774,528.22
ISK Lost: 501,057,339.33
ISK Delta: -57,282,811.11
Efficiency: 46.969%

[Xana McBash]

My vexor got popped when snuffed decided to drop 3 carriers+change on us, after such an amazing and meaningful engagement (thank you snuffed, for actually bringing content to our roam, that was a compelling, albeit short fight).

Instead of reshipping and rejoining the fleet, I headed off back to Stac to join the NPSI fleet. We eventually met again (and fought each other) in VLI.

About that particular brawl, I think your assessment is fairly accurate, main problems were warping your logi in at 0 (they were sitting ducks, and our confessors quickly jumped on them), and having some vexors not following targets.

Don't kick yourself too hard over this one Sketchy, there were a lot of pilots with little combat experience, it's impossible to get the most out of this composition when half your fleet is splitting damage, failing to anchor, not broadcasting, and so on, and so on...

Even though you are still lacking in combat experience and game knowledge, I do like your communication (commands were crystal clear, and you have the right instinct to FC), so I will join more of your fleets in the future o7

[Analiese Aubernet]

I was the FC of the NPSI fleet that you guys ran into at the end of your roam. To be entirely clear - I didn't want to engage the E-UNI fleet if 1) the E-UNI members of my fleet didn't mind and 2) you as the FC of the E-UNI fleet didn't mind. To that effect, I asked some of the E-UNI members in my fleet to contact you and ask if you wanted to fight. If you had said no, I would have moved my fleet off the gate and allowed you to pass.

With that out of the way - let's get to business When we talked, you graciously offered to allow me to choose where the fight would occur. I set up at a medium plex, but outside of the gate @ 0 - this effectively puts the opening move on you. As you already pointed out, bringing your logi wing in at 0km was a bad move, but mistakes happen. As it happened, this allowed the confessors to immediately burn into Gleam range and burn down your logi through whatever reps they were receiving. From there, the fight was effectively over - I'm not sure whether you told your guys to fight til the end or the mass of tackle I had did an excellent job, but it was a clean sweep. It was a good choice to pick the Svipul first - as you'll see from the killmail, he was flying more of a skirmirsher build and I should have been more clear that he wasn't to anchor with the Confessors. I think your primary moved around a couple of times, but then Maximus decided to play "how low can you go" with one of our logi and you managed to get him with a hard switch. Otherwise, our logi did an excellent job throughout the fight. It's been a long time since I called a fight like this - thank you for taking it!

What could you have done? Ultimately, I'm confident that my fleet could have pulled out the fight, but you could have made it much more difficult for us. The E-UNI BLAP Vexor is fit as follows -

Spoiler

[Vexor, SketchyManDan Williams's Vexor]
1600mm Crystalline Carbonide Restrained Plates
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
Damage Control II
Prototype Energized Explosive Membrane I

10MN Afterburner II
Drone Navigation Computer I
Warp Disruptor II
Kapteyn Compact Sensor Dampener,Targeting Range Dampening Script

Dual 150mm Compressed Coil Gun I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Compressed Coil Gun I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Compressed Coil Gun I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M
Dual 150mm Compressed Coil Gun I,Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge M

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I

With rails and damps, this fit excels at mid/long range damage projection. It can hold an enemy fleet at arm's reach, especially turret-based fleets, to minimize their damage with range and damps while still applying full drone damage regardless of range. If you can get your logi anchored on the far side of the fleet, it also makes it very difficult for enemy fleets to get at your logi.

The doctrine that my fleet was flying is sometimes referred to as Phalanx fleet - its a fleet that's designed to be very hard to kill, mostly. It excels in brawls while outnumbered/outshipped.

The Confessor fit that was specified for mainline DPS for my fleet last night was as follows -

Spoiler

[Confessor, Confessor (Phalanx Fleet, E War) - PvP]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
True Sansha Adaptive Nano Plating
Centii C-Type Thermal Plating
Heat Sink II
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Script
Remote Sensor Dampener II, Targeting Range Dampening Script

Dual Light Beam Laser II, Gleam S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Gleam S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Gleam S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Gleam S
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Energy Burst Aerator I
Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II

On Hand (Immediate Refit): x2 Guidance Disruptor II, x2 Tracking Disruptor II

Scripts: Targeting Range Dampening Scripts, Scan Resolution Dampening Scripts, Optimal Range Disruption Scripts, Tracking Speed Disruption Scripts, Missile Precision Disruption Scripts, Missile Range Disruption Scripts

It puts out 300dps with Gleam in Sharpshooter mode or 150dps at 40km with Aurora, and has 20k ehp without links in Defensive mode (perfect skills resists are 78/82/75/82) with a signature radius of 43 meters.

For this fleet, I had most of the Confessors use dampeners in the mids, while a couple of us had target painters and the occasional point thrown in with the damps.

I'm not sure where their reps were coming from

The logi fit for this fleet was as follows:

Spoiler

[Deacon, Deacon (Phalanx Fleet) - PvP]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Adaptive Nano Plating II
True Sansha Energized Thermal Membrane
Damage Control II

1MN Afterburner II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 400

Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer

Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II

The deacon has a tiny sig radius of 34m, 18.8k ehp without links, and reps for 142 raw hp/s. This means that two Deacons can rep another deacon through >1200 applied dps (1500 if heated) or three Deacons can rep one of the mainline Confessors in defensive mode through 2100 applied dps (2500 if heated). Through a combination of being very hard to hit and putting out an amazing amount of repairs, Deacons are a very very strong addition to any fleet.

What I think your best course of action would have been to bring in the Vexors at 30 km with the Augorors coming in at 50km. This puts your logi effective beyond range of the Confessors turrets for the opening sequences of the fight and allows them to get their cap chain up and get repping before anything too scary happens. I would have responded to this by calling for my Confessors to spread range damps on vexors, anchor up, and start burning in using Aurora in sharpshooter mode. This would allow you to kite away and more effectively use your rails and drone application while our damage is strictly limited by engagement range. Your Augorors may or may not have held your DD Vexors at this point, and the Confessors would be able to slowly close range by overheating ABs, but it would give you a decent chance to break my logi before the Confessors got into their highest damage range on your DD and even longer before your logi was under threat. Ultimately, I don't think you could break my fleet - my logi was on point for most of the fight and the one Deacon we lost was a combination of our mistake and you getting lucking and exploiting it rather than it truly breaking under the dps, and my Confessor was able to tank your full fleet in defensive mode.

Thank you very much for the fight, and please don't hesitate to ask any questions!

P.S. WAFFLES #1

[Maximus Hert]

I was Logi Command On the NPSI fleet.
i can say i definitely underestimated the power of the vexer's when the fleet first warped in on us and chose one of are deacons i decided to play the "how low can it go" aka baiting. the first deacon put under fire managed to survive and we tried to make him appear to be falling to waste the time of the opposing fleet. after the gig was up i think they switched to our FC. we repped him with all our repping power. now for my shame on this fleet. that deacon loss. so i was going to do the same thing again. but it did not go well. we had him holding at 1/2 armor and then he was gone. idk if i brought him to low transversal or what. (i was anchor as well). but he was there and then he was not. for a t2 ship that's very surprising alpha.

very good fight. nice target switching.
thanks to analiese for bring out a fleet from stacmon again after going all waffley

[DeanSherman]

How many logis did NPSI fleet have?
I saw 1 Deacon and we killed it.
It looks like some people who were on BLAP Vexors fleet and then joined the NPSI fleet were not shown on the overview for BLAP pilots, and this way they were invisible and invulnerable.

[Felix Jugo]

In the first half of the fleet we seemed to be desperately short of scouts and tackle. Might it be wise to make interceptors (and possibly assault frigate heavy tackle) part of the doctrine?

I'm not sure whether you told your guys to fight til the end or the mass of tackle I had did an excellent job

We didn't get a scatter command until almost all of us had exploded.

How many logis did NPSI fleet have? I saw 1 Deacon and we killed it. It looks like some people who were on BLAP Vexors fleet and then joined the NPSI fleet were not shown on the overview for BLAP pilots, and this way they were invisible and invulnerable.

I also saw only one Deacon. I've got a theory: if some of their Deacons were being piloted by Uni pilots they might have been filtered out of our PvP overview. Oops. I was wondering why we lost so badly to an enemy fleet that was so small.

[Analiese Aubernet]

We had 6 Confessors and 3 Deacons. I made sure to broadcast targets for the Uni pilots in my fleet... I should have remembered to warn your FC.

[DeanSherman]

I've got a theory: if some of their Deacons were being piloted by Uni pilots they might have been filtered out of our PvP overview.

This makes much more sense than my idea about filtering out ex fleet members.

Might it be wise to make interceptors (and possibly assault frigate heavy tackle) part of the doctrine?

Interceptors are listed under support ships here: https://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Basic_Le ... /Doctrines
There are also comments about fleet comp under Doctrine Q&A. I think with command destroyer we could get more fights, there were several situations when fleet warps to a plex or a gate and potential targets were like 100 km away, so command destroyer could boosh the fleet right to them.

[Budda Sereda]

Not sure how it was during the fight, but I would say FC should call 'scatter' at some point: no need to stay on the grid longer than needed. Once you see your DPS can't break anything - scatter. Maybe you all were pointed? This is fine too. But an attempt should be made.

After a Deacon was killed, I guess 2nd Deacon was primaried, but was holding DPS? For me, that is a sign to call 'scatter': if fleet can't break logy after recently killing logies, chances are fleet won't kill DPS either. That's not always like that (Confessors have bigger signature and could be easier to apply DPS), but yet melting under fire with no logies and no kills does not make much value.

I was surprised to see a killed Deacon at all: in my understanding 10 Vexors should not be able to break 1 being repaired by 2 others. Good job fleet!

[SketchyManDan Williams]

Hi Analiese Aubernet,
Cheers for posting your side of the fight, things are now much much clearer, and about wether we were to engage or not, I was more than up for the fight, seemed like a fun challenge to end the roam on

About not calling scatter. There was a few reasons for this. I couldnt see how many of our people were dropped . not sure if fleet chat was moving too fast but I couldn't see many -1's in there.

For the initial warp in, the call was for DD to land at 10 with Logi at 30. I hadn't set up the fleet exemption and accidentally took them with me here. but after we dropped the Deacon, I thought we'd stay and see what happens. I guess I should've also bounced to a celestial here before coming in, just to make it a bit less obvious about our direction when coming on grid with you?

Now... About those 3 Deacons. My overview showed at most 1 Deacon, 2 Confessors, a Rook, Curcifier, Punisher and Stiletto, this is mainly why I stayed in the fight to the end and didn't call scatter, I was thinking if we take down at least one of those confessors, we may be able to take the rest too . I couldn't see the other Logi anywhere on my overview to call primary on, and this is why I stuck with primary on the confessors after the only Deacon I could see went down. I had no idea there were 5 Confessors on grid during the fight along with 3 Logi! Whats wrong with my overview here!??
Even our intel didn't pick up the number of ships you had, does whatever stopped them appearing on the overview stop them appearing on DScan too?

Edit - From the other posts, this seems like this was because we're the same corp? What overview settings would I need to change next time to change this?

Cheers for the fight and tips on best practices for this doctrine! First time trying them out, and it was quite tricky trying to work out what fights we could and couldn't take that night.

[Sioban Mernher]

I lost the Vex in Asakai and it happened very rapidly. I did not understand what was happening and why I died so fast (outside of being a newbro with little experience). Though after a few fleets, a pattern is emerging, my lack of agility seems to be part of the problem. Also, and I know I'm stating the obvious, but in the 2 small vexor fleets I've been in this week, the lack of numbers seems to be a problem with this doctrine too.

After reshiping into a Condor, I went back with the fleet and engaged in the big next fight. If only to scram someone in order to help my mates. I new I was gonna die ! Anyway, after reading this AAR, I realize that there was much more going on than I could possibly could have "catched".

Keep up the good work FCs !! these events are fantastic.

[Dredd Valentine]

So, this was my first fleet in almost 5 years, and even then I barely did one or two Frigate fleets with the Uni.

There is so much Eve slang that I did not know...

However, even though I boogered multiple warps, and even got far enough away to unintentionally be bait, FC and the rest of the fleet were very patient, which I greatly appreciated.

I'll be taking part in as many BLAP roams as I can, and since Vexors are my favorite so far I will be paying particular attention to those flights.

Thank you all again!

[Budda Sereda]

I lost the Vex in Asakai and it happened very rapidly. I did not understand what was happening and why I died so fast (outside of being a newbro with little experience). Though after a few fleets, a pattern is emerging, my lack of agility seems to be part of the problem. Also, and I know I'm stating the obvious, but in the 2 small vexor fleets I've been in this week, the lack of numbers seems to be a problem with this doctrine too.

After reshiping into a Condor, I went back with the fleet and engaged in the big next fight. If only to scram someone in order to help my mates. I new I was gonna die ! Anyway, after reading this AAR, I realize that there was much more going on than I could possibly could have "catched".

Keep up the good work FCs !! these events are fantastic.

Lack of numbers should be compensated by chosing proper target. On my experience, and experience from other AARs, I see that E-Uni T1 CR (even in 20-30% bigger number) lose to T3Ds from other corps/more experienced players. I believe this is because both: higher skill points and better game knowledge of those who fly T3D ships.

If you are in the end of the fleet it is ok to take a fight which you most likely gonna lose. Otherwise, try to not engage: escaping from the camp is also a skill to learn and practice. Clearly, this is FCs call, but I do want to send the message: even in low numbers we can get good fights, just need to pick the right opponents.