[Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

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Decklin Quark Reiger
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[Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

We formed up in Uphallant, with a solid turnout and fleet composition. We had 33 in fleet, with our mainline including 19 Caracals, 5 Ospreys, 2 Cepters, 1 Bifrost, 1 Hyena, and 1 Bellicose. We also had additional support in the form of an Atron, Crucifier, and 2 Blackbirds.
Spoiler
Altar Kabal ( Caracal )
Ariea Thellare ( Logi Commander )
ashahara ( Caracal )
B'aldrick Aivoras ( Bifrost )
Burak Oz ( Caracal )
Crane Aideron ( Caracal )
DeanSherman (Atron)
Decklin Quark Reiger ( Caracal, FC)
Dgdsgy Foobar ( Blackbird )
DonBasuno Ichosira ( Logi )
DonkeyPunch Udan ( Caracal, 2IC )
Gatt2111 ( Caracal )
Jason Eoner ( Hyena )
Jax Renalard ( Cepter )
Kirsi Isrik ( Caracal )
Ludvic Sulla ( Caracal, newbro! ) :)
Muzzy Chuck ( Caracal )
Oh' Leeador ( Caracal )
Phaethonx Brutor ( Caracal, newbro! ) :)
SketchyManDan Williams ( Caracal )
Tika On ( Caracal )
Tlymphocyte ( Logi )
Trillian Ituin ( Bellicose )
Troven Smalvard ( Cepter )
Two Ghosts ( Crucifier )
Union Pivo ( Logi )
Veever Yvormes ( Caracal )
Wokum ( Caracal )
Xana McBash ( Caracal )
Z0X Ambrye ( Caracal )
Zana Fehrnah ( Logi )
Zarquu Fussuhfusus ( Logi )
Zeerse Solaris ( Blackbird )
Megoste was hanging around Uphallant while we formed up, and followed us through into Dastryns, where he followed us to the OST gate, and sat still at 100km off the gate... We had a Bifrost with us... he was still sitting still at 100km away... so I practiced booshing our fleet onto a target.

Only a small portion of the fleet caught the boosh, but Baldrick caught Megoste, and we finished him off.

(18:53) Dastryns
Osprey Navy Issue +103.32m


While we travelled up the pipe towards Vlillirier, one of our scouts spotted a gang of attack battlecruisers in Intaki. They turned out to be from Black Flag Synidcate, and were bashing either a POS or a POCO. GIven the Uni rules about structure warfare, we didn't interfere, but moved on. We did notice a number of Black Flag capsules heading in the same direction with us towards their home around Aubenall / Oulley.

In Oulley, Troven spotted a Gnosis, a couple Exequrors, and another cruiser or two who had been participating in a gate camp. The fleet was two jumps away in Renarelle, but I sent Baldrick and SketchyManDan into Aubenall. My plan was for Troven to tackle the Gnosis, and for Baldrick to boosh the Gnosis off the gate and hold him while the fleet simultaneously jumped into Aubenall, and warped to Baldrick (You'll notice here that I got mixed up at first about which side of the Aubenall / Oulley gate that the Gnosis was on. Thankfully, Troven clarified this while Baldrick was on the way. We amended the plan slightly, given that the Gnosis was in Oulley. In this case, what actually happened was Troven got tackle on the Gnosis, Baldrick and Sketchy jumped in to Oulley, and Baldrick attempted to boosh the Gnosis off the gate, while the rest of the fleet was in warp to the Oulley gate. (Un?)fortunatly both the Gnosis and Sketchy missed the boosh. The Gnosis crashed the gate, running away from Sketchy, and right into the fleet's waiting arms:

(19:10) Aubenall
Gnosis +69.26m
Capsule +43.68m

Shortly afterwards, another Black Flag Oracle got careless, and we caught him on a gate in Oulley, just barely popping him as he bounced off the gate trying to jump through:

(19:17) Oulley
Oracle +134.5m

After this, Black Flag were eager for a fight, and formed up for us, leading to a 30-minute, 3-round fleet brawl that spread across the full width of Renarelle:

Battle report: http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=38 ... 2&e=28&t=u
(most of the logi aren't shown - we had 5 Ospreys, and they had 2-3 Guardians)

At first, Troven reported that they were entering Renarelle from Aubenall. I didn't quite catch their fleet composition verbally, other than that there were Guardians, at least one Bhaalgorn, and some battlecruisers and cruisers. I took the fleet to a medium to more clearly assess their composition, and separate their fleet if they entered. I quickly realised that there was no way they would go for a fight inside the Medium, but if we were careful in our positioning, we should be able to disengage without too much difficulty.

I wanted the fight to happen in a deadspace pocket so they wouldn't be able to warp on top of us, so We bounced out to a nearby FW complex (a small I think), and aligned back to the medium where Black Flag was outside. Troven confirmed their position at zero on the acceleration gate, with their Guardians slightly in the direction of the Aubenall gate, which was away from us. I mentally debated the value of bouncing to the Aubenall gate and back to the medium, but discarded that thought when Troven said their Guardians were re-positioning anyway.

I warped our fleet at about 40 to the medium, and Round 1 was on!

In this round of the fight, they quickly eliminated our Atron and Hyena, as well as two of the Caracals. We struggled initially to break their reps - tried a couple different Hurricanes, putting our drones on one of their Guards, to distract logi a bit, and swapping between targets that got within our 40km range. Eventually we managed to break a hurricane.

At this point, our fleet was getting slightly out of position. One of our Blackbird pilots was doing silly things in brawling range of their fleet, and some of the Caracals were lagging behind a bit, struggling to maintain capacitor to catch up. We were also getting low on remaining heat, so I warped us away to a celestial near the center of the system, to recover cap, repair heat damage, and regroup the fleet.

(19:30) Renarelle round 1:
Caracal -25.69m
Hyena -26.43m
Atron -2.34m
Caracal -28.04m
Hurricane +77.43m
Blackbird -24.08m
Caracal -29.91m
Caracal -12.97m


Just as we were finishing repairing and reloading, their scout found us ( I think I had taken us to an asteroid belt). I didn't want them to be able to warp on-grid, so I took us to a nearby drone swarm, and prepared for the fight. Unfortunately, I anchored the Caracals in the opposite direction from where Zarquu took the Logi, so the logi warped off and back in, to reposition. To make this work, I pulled the Caracals off in the direction that the logi warped, so they could warp back to us at range. During this engagement, we quickly killed off their Vexor Navy Issue that had joined in. After that, we stayed just at the edge of our max range, and basically repeated the same tactics as before - keeping our Caracals positioned between their fleet and our Logi. After melting the VNI, we again traded a Blackbird, Caracal and Hyena for one of their Hurricanes, before we had to warp off to reposition the fleet, since some people had gotten out of position.

Renarelle round 2:
Vexor Navy Issue +108.6m
Blackbird -10.68m
Caracal -13m
Hyena -25.47m
Hurricane +98.71m


We warped out and repositioned for round 3:

This time, we made sure both the caracals and ospreys moved the same direction off the warp in, and anchored up well. Unfortunately as we were going for our first target, our command destroyer accidentally jumped our FC away, so Xana took over temporarily as anchor, and we got the fleet back together.
This time around, we were lower on numbers, and we weren't able to break anything. We tried to use the command destroyer to jump their guardians away from their fleet, but it didn't quite work. After several losses, we disengaged and gave GF's in local:

Renarelle round 3:
Caracal -17.14m
Caracal -28.58m
Caracal -13.98m
Caracal -13.38m
Caracal -28.46m
Caracal -36.08m

While we were looting the field at one of our battle locations, Jax learned that he should orbit a rail-fit Cormorant close, not at range:

(20:11) Renarelle
Stiletto -43.05m

Troven caught a Gnosis at a drone site in Nennamaila:

(20:47) Nennamaila
Gnosis +72.62m
Capsule +0.01m

A Snuffed Out gate camp caught Troven in Rakapas:

(20:57) Rakapas
Stiletto -39.98m

We blobbed an RDRAW Ishkur in Indregulle

(21:09) Indregulle
Ishkur +62.18m


And then we bravely ran away from the pursuing Hurricane fleet - it was late :( sorry RDRAW - next time!

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 770,315,175.96
ISK Lost: 419,234,302.39
ISK Delta: 351,080,873.57
Efficiency: 64.757%
Last edited by Decklin Quark Reiger on 2017.06.24 14:28, edited 2 times in total.
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Decklin Quark Reiger
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

I'm sorry, Megoste :(

Feedback and lessons learned:
  1. For the fight against Black Flag, looking at the kill mails afterwards, I realised that although I was within my maximum range when I fired the missiles, my own applied damage was actually very low. I think I need to anchor a little closer than I was expecting. This would probably have meant we could break a lot more than we did.
  2. I still need to find a consistent pattern for how I broadcast and call primary and secondary targets, in order to coordinate damage switches in fleet fights, in order to beat their logi
  3. There were a couple of T1 targets (Gnosis, Maller), that we could possibly have killed, if I had been willing to go closer to their fleet.
  4. Overall fleet positioning and anchoring, especially for logi was good, with only a few exceptions.
  5. The fleet recovered well when the FC got booshed away. We were able to coordinate to get everyone back into position. way to go :)
  6. Caracals are a bit different compared to Talwars, in how we skirmish. As What Zang Xuu mentions below, Talwars rely almost exclusively on their Alpha Strike, or the first few volleys. Caracals on the other hand, rely on being able to finish off a target during one clip of ammunition. So there's a big difference in how we try to change targets and beat their logi. I still need more practice on this.
Last edited by Decklin Quark Reiger on 2017.06.24 14:52, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Budda Sereda »

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:I'm sorry, Megoste :(
Are you? LOL
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

Budda Sereda wrote:
Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:I'm sorry, Megoste :(
Are you? LOL
Yeah, I am. I don't mind killing my EVE friends, and ECM is part of the game, but I offended a friend here.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Zarquu Fussuhfusus »

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:I'm sorry, Megoste :(
You have to admit, it was some fine, high quality salt that was mined in that engagement :P I think we had not one, but two Blackbirds .... and we all know how much Megoste loves the big black things. The lady doth protest too much. BTW, Megoste - it wasn't me :P I was Logi.

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:(Further narrative to follow)
I look forward to this, because IMO here you really demonstrated a marked improvement in your FCing over that which I've seen to date. You seemed quite comfortable dealing with a rather complex tactical engagement where you had multiple fleet elements to command and a lot of combat variables to consider. This could very easily have been a straight whelping had even a slightly less capable FC taken the fight. The use warp-out-and-return for positioning when the fleet was spreading out too far to effectively land Alpha was a good idea.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

We did have 2 blackbirds, and I was one in my masked tackle ship with a standard dps fit. Which is why I was at zero to blackflag and I suspect why I got no reps. I did muse over telling logi what my fit was but thought I would see what happened.

My feedback for Decklin would be when in that fight and excitement is high, partial orders are repeated many times, partial in that the doing element is repeated over and over but not the who, an example and probably not entirely accurate was "lock up pilot x, all damage on x, kill kill, kill it, kill it, kill, kill, overheat, overheat, overheat, overheat, overheat."

I think we still recommend repeating the full order 3 times. So it would have been lock up pilot x 3 times, all damage on x 3 times and overheat 3 times. The gap giving some space for someone to query an order, give intel, FC to call secondary for locking etc.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Budda Sereda »

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:
Budda Sereda wrote:
Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:I'm sorry, Megoste :(
Are you? LOL
Yeah, I am. I don't mind killing my EVE friends, and ECM is part of the game, but I offended a friend here.
I see what you mean, sorry for my lol.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Budda Sereda »

I don't believe it is reasonable to repeat 'lock' command 3 times: as soon as targets broadcasted, they should be locked.
Primary - yes, that should being repeated until it is died, but not lock
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

Budda Sereda wrote:I don't believe it is reasonable to repeat 'lock' command 3 times: as soon as targets broadcasted, they should be locked.
Primary - yes, that should being repeated until it is died, but not lock
Normally, I would agree with you.

However, with the Talwar and Caracal doctrines, it's really key to get the fleet to fire on the same target all in a single volley. So, as the FC I need to allow that time for :

- people to realise that I am changing targets
- people to de-cycle their missile launchers
- people to lock the next target
- wait for *everyone* to be ready to fire

In *all* of the above time, I do *not* want any of the fleet to actually be firing yet.. I *only* want them to lock. So, by saying "Lock, and lock only" I am in effect, confirming that they should not fire yet. This is less error prone than saying, "lock, but do not fire".. because sometimes people will hear the word "fire" and think that they should fire.

Does that make sense?

I agree with Zeerse above, where I could be clearer by specifying the target of the command, not just 'overheat' or 'kill it'. I am experimenting a bit with trying to get people to rely on my broadcasts, rather than just the verbal name of the target. Even so, repeating the ship and pilot probably doesn't hurt. Something to keep improving on.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by ashahara »

good fleet, enjoyed it.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Glen Burney »

With respect to repeating commands, it can be a challenge, even for a veteran pilot, to find the thing to be locked in the overview. Of course, the best way to do this is to use the fleet history window. But I have absolutely been in engagements like the following:
FC: "Lock Up FleezlBub Donger, DongerBulb Fleeze, And BulberFleeez Dong."
Me: <is turning off overheat, decycling guns, checking to see that i'm close to my anchor, checking d-scan quickly, and reading reddit, generally forgetting that fleet history even exists>
Me: <thinking now who do I have to lock up? madly sorting overview which is now filled with angry flashing yellow things, seeing if the broadcast is at top, thinking whoa someone just locked me up, am i gonna be primaried? AND forgetting to use fleet history>
FC: All damage on BulberFleez Dong in 3... 2... 1...
ME: <dammit who?>

I'm a pretty competent F1 jockey , but realize that every other Mainline DD ship is experiencing about this level of struggle just with piloting his ship and following orders. Repetition of orders (and allowing time for people to come up to speed) is critical for FCs. So that first line, "Lock up these 3 people" can be repeated a few times to help people come up to speed. Maybe also a reminder to have the fleet window open to history :) I know that would help me :)

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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

Yeah, that scenario that Glen described is pretty much exactly what I experience as a line member as well.

That's why I'm experimenting with not even verbally naming Fleezlbub Donger or DongerBulb Fleeze. Instead, reminding people up front about the history tab, and then just saying, "Lock up this one" "Lock up this broadcast" "Lock and Lock only" And then again sometimes I do say the ship type and pilot name..

I suspect they key to any of it is consistency. Helping your pilots by doing things in a consistent way, so they can get used to it.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

Budda Sereda wrote:I don't believe it is reasonable to repeat 'lock' command 3 times: as soon as targets broadcasted, they should be locked.
Primary - yes, that should being repeated until it is died, but not lock

That's a very strange view of reasonable, we say warp warp warp in not particularly threatening situations but in a fight where understanding the orders is critical you don't think it is?

Theres no reason not to do both, and it doesn't need to be all done by the FC, they can delegate that task to 2ic or anyone else so they can focus on calling targets/manoeuvring, rather than themselves fiddling around with clicks to do broadcasts.
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Zang Xuu »

Sounds like a real nice roam.

Comms are always variable group to group. I favor talking less, so that other important info can be relayed, or second comms can be used by FC, but I know newer player oriented groups like EUNI or MA can use more repetition.
However, with the Talwar and Caracal doctrines, it's really key to get the fleet to fire on the same target all in a single volley.
RLML caracal doesn't use alpha strike to be effective.

Consider RLML caracal vs LM talwar. The caracal fires every 2.6 seconds and has alpha = 4.3x DPS. The talwar fires about every 10s with alpha = 9.8x DPS. The talwar puts twice as much damage into alpha than the caracal.

(edit: the above should be considered with reloads off, which makes the difference even larger. alpha = ~2.7x DPS for the RLML.)
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Re: [Fleet] BLAP Caracals get a fleet fight with Black Flag

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

Zang Xuu wrote: RLML caracal doesn't use alpha strike to be effective.

Consider RLML caracal vs LM talwar. The caracal fires every 2.6 seconds and has alpha = 4.3x DPS. The talwar fires about every 10s with alpha = 9.8x DPS. The talwar puts twice as much damage into alpha than the caracal.

(edit: the above should be considered with reloads off, which makes the difference even larger. alpha = ~2.7x DPS for the RLML.)
Thanks for the correction :) I particularly appreciate using the cycle time and ratio of Alpha Strike to DPS to demonstrate the reasoning. I'll keep that in mind for future doctrines as well.
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