[FLEET] Maller Love 2017.06.16

[Tylenos Targas]

Maller Love

Last Friday Night we neither maxed our credit cards nor got kicked out of bars, but we did form a small murder of Mallers and set out into Placid to find something to shoot. With nearly 25 pilots we where under the target number by quite a bit, which makes it somewhat hard to balance damage, neuts and heavy tackle specifically. The Maller fleet works well when you have 4-6 heavy tackle, 4-6 neuts and a good balance of damage and logi, which easely requires 40 pilots for doctrine alone, apart from scouts, boosts and a smidgeon of light tackle.

When I organise a fleet I always feel obligated to deliver (which also for some reason makes me way more stressed than forming up for ad-hoc fights) so we reshipped some excess logi into a Maller or two and headed out into Ostingele with Decklin in a roaming interceptor, Gatt 2111 in a cloaky scout roll he wanted to try out, and a main fleet of 16 Mallers, 5 Augorors and myself in a boosting Prophecy. (Biwako turned up fashionably late with an extra interceptor)

In short, apart from an Arbitrator gank, some “we can’t kill you but you can’t hit us” nonsense with a Garmur or two and a sighting of a T2 frigate gang content turned out sparse until 9 Stabber Fleet Issue’s where reported. We had set up in a drone event site in Abune at the time to take some advantage of deadspace mechanics, we should have just completed that one so someone would at least have gotten a free booster out of it

To eager for content we gave chase into Heydelies and bit on one of two on grid Augorors. Finding the R.E.V.O.L.U.T.I.O.N Nidhogger on grid soon after we started chewing through the second Augoror (or was it already there? Great situational awareness there Tylenos) I decided to call for scatter.

Fighting a carrier on a gate with our setup and enemy reinforcements nearby would have been fairly pointless, and at least we could limit losses that way. Down three Mallers, the Proph and 4 Augs of our own versus the one, though bling fit, logistics boat on the REVO side. Even if we could have held the field against REVO the carrier would have been able to de-agress by cross jumping the gate and clearing any tackle on the other side within our combat timer. After scatter I tried to de-agress myself but died with a good 20 seconds left on my timer, if I had just pushed on the second Aug we could have probably gotten another kill out of it.

Battle report (green side unrelated) http://evf-eve.com/services/brcat/?s=4979&b=7604350&e=10&t=KQQQc

ISK destroyed: 67.91m ISK lost: 253.15m Efficiency: 21%

This engagement left us with a single Augoror, forcing us to burn back to Stac through highsec.

Various hindsight’s:

• Stress for some reason shrinks my English vocabulary. Running a fleet more often should help there.
• 1600 plate Augs are a thing, I’m going to see if I can Pyfa up a cheap one. Though I intend to run either a Maller doctrine or other form of fleet every two or three weeks, I will aim for setups that work with smaller fleet sizes.
• The prophecy gave us more down- than upsides, it slowed down the fleet and locked us out of medium plexes. Next time I’ll look for a boosting command destroyer or two over the Proph.
• I should have called for our roaming scouts to check out Heydelies before jumping the fleet in.

Big thanks to Troven for helping out with our Logi wing, I hope newer logi pilots got some useful experience out of it. Also kudo’s to the various fleet members offering assistance seting up and running the fleet .

[Claire Badasaz]

Well, it was fun, and thank you and Troven for having us.

Regarding the training of cap chain logistics I got the idea that PVE might be a good intermediate step. Setting up cap chains under pressure, anchoring, launching and directing drones, watching the watchlist and the fleet history, maybe even have a look at the enemy - all this can be trained more safely in the more predictable setting of PVE.

[Laser Skaron]

[*]1600 plate Augs are a thing, I’m going to see if I can Pyfa up a cheap one. Though I intend to run either a Maller doctrine or other form of fleet every two or three weeks, I will aim for setups that work with smaller fleet sizes.

Ugh, that doesn't sound fun. The only places where you can actually gain power grid are: rigs, high slots and implants. With no implants you need at least 2 rigs to get that high (one of which is T2), and you gain less than 5% extra ehp (1.5k) and a tiny bit of extra speed - cost is compact reps and double the price, I don't think that's worth it.

Maybe you can get away with a T1 rig if you need higher pilot SP and change to small cap transfers (haven't checked if it works) > you can't mix it with new pilots. Or maybe you move to a small rep, which I don't think is worth the benefits.

[Dan Egdald]

This fleet was fun and well setup. Unfortunate that our opponents saw fit to use the niddy on what would have otherwise been a fairly well balanced fight. Thankful for the opportunity to get out and stretch my legs again all the same!

[*]1600 plate Augs are a thing, I’m going to see if I can Pyfa up a cheap one. Though I intend to run either a Maller doctrine or other form of fleet every two or three weeks, I will aim for setups that work with smaller fleet sizes.

Ugh, that doesn't sound fun. The only places where you can actually gain power grid are: rigs, high slots and implants. With no implants you need at least 2 rigs to get that high (one of which is T2), and you gain less than 5% extra ehp (1.5k) and a tiny bit of extra speed - cost is compact reps and double the price, I don't think that's worth it.

Maybe you can get away with a T1 rig if you need higher pilot SP and change to small cap transfers (haven't checked if it works) > you can't mix it with new pilots. Or maybe you move to a small rep, which I don't think is worth the benefits.

Small cap transmitters removes synergy with guardians, but if you've only got augs in fleet it's not necessarily a problem. But the tank difference is significant.



As an example:

Spoiler

Reps a little less than the 800mm fit (approx 10%), on account of having to drop one repper down to deadspace small version, but otherwise has tonnes more tank(approx 30%).

[Raido Kudonen]

Some feedback on the Heydieles fight. Keep in mind that I'm working only from the killfeed, so if there were other ships in the REVOLUTION gang that don't appear on the killfeed, some of this advice may not be quite right. Apologies in advance for that. I also believe that this version of the killfeed is more accurate than the one in the OP, as the OP's version excludes an Augoror and two Stabber Fleet Issues that show up on Uni killmails but aren't in REVOLUTION.

First off, good job on identifying the weaknesses of links Prophecies, don't use those anymore. Booshers are far better.

Second, this engagement highlights the need for properly-formed support wings. For example, you should have a dedicated webbing ship on essentially all cruiser roams of this size (or a bit smaller, for that matter). An Ashimmu is pretty good, and cheap if T2 fit. Fit below.

Spoiler

[Ashimmu, cheap]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Medium Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu
Medium Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu

Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Infiltrator II x4

A proper webbing ship allows you to lock down and kill fighters (if people are so gauche as to drop a carrier on a cruiser fight), which deters the overuse of carriers considerably because fighters are damn expensive. For example, a full squad of Templar Is is worth about 31.5m and gives a killmail; even if you only kill a few of the fighters, it still annoys the owner quite a bit. In subcap engagements, you can lock down the damage primary, making your DPS ships apply considerably better.

Third, your logi don't seem to have performed very well in this engagement. It looks like they cleared your logi about the same time you got theirs (and before the carrier was even on grid), and the logi don't seem to have really repped each other much at all. Ideally, you would have had more logi than you did for a fleet this size, but also I wonder if folks maybe forgot to activate (let alone heat) hardeners or weren't broadcasting properly or something.

However, you don't really need 40 ships. That was mostly Gareth talking nonsense (and in a time when the lowsec meta was very different). You can double up on neuts/webs by bringing a couple Ashimmus, and since heavy tackle is not really a thing in T1 cruiser fleets that just about gets you to a kickass comp in the 25-30 ship zone.

[Troven Smalvard]

Third, your logi don't seem to have performed very well in this engagement. It looks like they cleared your logi about the same time you got theirs (and before the carrier was even on grid), and the logi don't seem to have really repped each other much at all. Ideally, you would have had more logi than you did for a fleet this size, but also I wonder if folks maybe forgot to activate (let alone heat) hardeners or weren't broadcasting properly or something.

Your right on the amount of reps landed.

we "only" had 5 (6?) logi boats and of those 2/3 new logi pilots. + we also reshipped logi to dps before undocking to raise numbers.

I don't want the new guys getting too disheartened,
we had some extra time before main form up started to discuss what to do in a fight, in terms of getting reps on and getting chain up, and we also talked about OH hardeners to try and give few more seconds to let reps catch. ( I don't think we discussed with main fleet but as logi was first off in this case wouldnt have mattered)

i called for OH reps from the off as we immediately didn't catch and hold the first primary
i was calling reps as they came up in broadcast, i'm not sure if this helps or not, feedback appreciated, even if it jogs people to know a new broadcast is up it might be a +?
Even i didn't get chance to OH my hardeners when primaried so it may even be worth while doing that for a few cycles from get go in engage like this as logi always tested first, and you should have plenty of heat cycles in hardeners with Thermo IV
even with logi pre locked we melted.

after fight in our channel on way back the new guys said how much it was to get everything activated and lock broadcasts and anchor up all in one go from the off when we jumped i and the screen lights up with flashies.
We can talk through and through but its always going to be a shock to the system first few times ( but its also half the fun of the game getting the pvp jitters) only real way to practice is to do the real thing, so please keep L'ing up to fly logi, and i t will get easier, promise.

saw the PVE comment also, PVE will help you learn which buttons to press and get a feel for the basics of your ship but PVP is always going to be different and more intense



TLDR, new logi guys, blame is on your logi FC not you, and i would love to see you all in logi boats again next time, we are a learning place and we learn by doing.


Also, forget about your drones in these cases they are always the last and least important things to worry about at this stage, when you dont have to think of everything else out loud then you can add them to your repertoire

[Raido Kudonen]

^ I could quote all of Troven's post, but I'll just say that this is exactly the sort of response I was trying to provoke. Flying the logi role is not easy, and it's not easy to teach and it often feels (if you're not experienced in the role) like the entire fleet is resting on your shoulders...because it is. I didn't ever logi FC (and hardly ever flew logi) until I joined WAFFLES and it's one of the few ways I still get the PvP shakes.

Keep trying, get better, and pass your experience on to the next guys.

Oh, one other thing. This is what reps on T2-tanked Augorors should look like.

Spoiler

The first thing you should notice is that this fit is benefiting from two sets of links - the Pontifex is giving armor resists and buffer, while the Magus is giving speed and tackle range links. Ideally, you should have a third command destroyer giving rapid repair plus either skirmish (sig) or info (electronic hardening), which would increase the EHP/s of your Aug reps substantially beyond these numbers.

Second, with only one command destroyer directly increasing your tanking power (the skirmish links "only" make you harder to hit), your incoming EHP/s from one Augoror should rep the perfect all-Vs DPS of two of their Stabber Fleet Issues (I'm assuming 1600mm plate, AB, 220mm ACs, and 4 Hammerheads - note that this means applying perfect DPS depends on being inside Hail optimal which is maybe not likely). So a proper fleet comp would have allowed you to easily perma-tank their fleet with the Nidhoggur on grid with 5-6 Augorors.

(As Tylenos has correctly noted in the OP, the Prophecy is not an adequate substitute here - for starters, it isn't bonused for links at all, so even with 3 links on the Prophecy the fleet isn't getting the full benefits of the command destroyers.)

Third, this is the performance you can get with a T2 tanked, meta rep Augoror that costs 26m ISK. There's no need for the Uni to start flying deadspace rep Augs; folks with better SP and enough income should be flying command destroyers and Ashimmus and stuff like that once you have the Augoror critical mass.

[Tylenos Targas]

That is the beauty of flying pvp-logi. Overcoming both information overload and the induced terror of setting up chain/anchor/tank while watching your fleetmates die can only be done through the experience of watching your fleetmates die It is just a matter of trying and trying again until it becomes second nature and you do catch reps on time. And don't forget, it's a game. Virtual space pixels.

@raido:
I do like the Ashimmu idea to shrink fleet size. The price point is, with a hull price of 90mln, much steeper than the T1 setup though. I guess in the current meta expecting a couple of older-bro's show up in more expensive ships should be acceptable.

[Raido Kudonen]

@raido:
I do like the Ashimmu idea to shrink fleet size. The price point is, with a hull price of 90mln, much steeper than the T1 setup though. I guess in the current meta expecting a couple of older-bro's show up in more expensive ships should be acceptable.

Well, as far as price goes, you just don't have a lot of options. Long range webs in an armor brawl fleet are not negotiable - if you don't have them, your applied DPS is quite poor and you rely entirely on ECM against fighters (which requires a fair amount of clicks and pilot knowledge to use effectively). So here are your options for range-bonused webs.

Vigil Fleet Issue - hull price 19.6m, total fit price 26.5m

Spoiler

[Vigil Fleet Issue, armor fleet]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Afterburner II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Anti-Explosive Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I
Small Trimark Armor Pump I

While the Vigil Fleet Issue has range-bonused webs, the bonus only gets T2 webs out to 15km cold/unlinked. Meanwhile, you have T1 frigate resists with 3 low slots and a hair over 9.2k ehp. Good luck not getting blapped; at this point you might as well just hope your Magus pilots have webs. (NB: do not rely on command destroyers for webs, good grief.)

Hyena - hull price 23.6m, total fit price 44.3m

Spoiler

[Hyena, vexor support]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II

1MN Afterburner II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Anti-Kinetic Pump II
Small Anti-Explosive Pump II

Okay, now we're talking, and 45m (subject to the market not being price manipulated - Hyena hull prices spiked to 50m a couple weeks ago) is barely more expensive than a T2-fit T1 DPS cruiser. Your unlinked cold web range is 30km (tied to the Minmatar Frigates skill, so you get most of the utility from a Hyena at Electronic Attack Ships I), and your T2 resists get you 16.5k ehp with a tiny 33m sig radius.

In short, the Hyena is a viable option for webs; this version has a sebo for catching bad guys on gates, but you could also put a TP there if you were worried about killing frigates. However, it lacks the neut utility of the Ashimmu and is still somewhat vulnerable to RLMLs and similar anti-support weapons. I would generally want to bring a couple Ashimmus even if I had a Hyena because of the Ashimmus' neut power - have the Ashimmus spread webs on the enemy fleet (or mess with their anchors) while the Hyena pilot locks down the primary.

Ashimmu - hull price 100m, total fit price 120m

Spoiler

[Ashimmu, cheap]

1600mm Steel Plates II
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Energized Thermal Membrane II
Energized Kinetic Membrane II
Energized Explosive Membrane II

10MN Afterburner II
Stasis Webifier II
Stasis Webifier II
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800

Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Medium Infectious Scoped Energy Neutralizer
Medium Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu
Medium Ghoul Compact Energy Nosferatu

Medium Anti-EM Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I
Medium Trimark Armor Pump I


Infiltrator II x4

This ship has more buffer without links than your Mallers have with full command destroyer links, and its webs reach 20km cold and unlinked. So even if they primary your Ashimmu, it will catch reps unless your entire fleet is welping. Moreover, it neuts something like 94gj/s, meaning 2 of these cap out a regengu very quickly and will essentially roflstomp non-cap-chaining logi if you catch them within web range. So yeah. Bring a Hyena if you like - you won't go wrong doing so, especially since it has 10km better base T2 web range than the Ashimmus - but bring a couple Ashimmus on a Maller fleet as well.