[AAR] Magic Moas: "Capitals are the best kind of flattery"

[Laser Skaron]

Opponents did have around 10 T3Ds, + some small things. Thier total DPS was around 2500-3000 (assuming L5 skills and solid application). Killing 1 Moa takes... what, 10 seconds? Logies lock time should be less than that. Also assuming shield reps land in the beginning of the cycle, logies should be able to land reps on time.

Maybe this is combined with time delay broadcasting for reps? If pilot waits 3-5 seconds to broadcast, and logies need 5 seconds to land reps... pilot just dies...

That's a lot of back of the napkin insight without seeing the footage.

The problem was primarily sig tanking on the cookies side, not logi prowess. We got a 6s rep cycle + massive lock times. That makes micromanaging our reps problematic. Ignore all numbers when it comes to actual repping power. The fight was not on the numbers, it was on relocking and retargetting reps. You'll also see me swapping from ECCM scripts to scan res early during the fight to counter that (I called the swap but not sure how many people caught that).

We're also super optimistic at these back of the napkin math deals... it takes way more than 3-5 seconds to recognize you're targeted and broadcast for reps (first ship they took down was a capsule when we started to lock). I'll also point out that especially as a new player you're not used to broadcasting for reps. If we're on point, it takes us 1-3 seconds to notice the broadcast was called. Then it takes 3-7 seconds to lock, and if we're already repping someone, we have to wait 2-4 seconds for our reps to decycle.

But that being said. I originally thought people weren't broadcasting. I was wrong. I think 3-4 people in total did not broadcast. Good job folks. I also felt we are doing a better and better job coordinating in our space priest wing. Congrats everyone!

What went wrong on the logi side, was my ability to actually keep track of people who were falling. I was severely underestimating our losses. Thing is when we were catching people (and we were at times) we were holding them up pretty well, which gave me a false sense of security. I saw both people dropping and people holding up well and somehow I was too optimistic. At the same time, I also thought we were breaking something, hoped we were stabilizing our damage. Moreover, for some reason I didn't use shortcuts for my reps this fight, which is bad. Not sure why but obvious mistake is obvious.

It was a tough fight, and I enjoyed it. Here's our version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okYVlUVCHHg

General feedback: I feel like we're wasting too many syllables in our comms. I understand they are super helpful for our new players but it's nice to observe the contrast between the two viewpoints on the fight and see how much each FC needs to talk, and the kind of orders they need to issue.

PS. I want to thank Max for the backseat driving. Was completely off my game when it comes to updating our FC.

[Torg Navatin]

Fielding a caretaker Osprey (one not fit for repairs but for sending out capacitor / energy transfers to cap broadcasts) could be an option to deal with the low cap life on these boats.

Would still require you scrubs to actually broadcast for cap

[Vorphalak]

This math does not count on boosters, is that such a big difference?

Like others have said, the math alone never tells the full story. But to answer your question, yes it is.

We had three command dessies with a total of five command bursts. We used three shield links, one skirmish and one info.
I ran shield hp and sig radius/agility on my Bifrost. Since I only have Command Destroyers to level 4, and no mindlink implant, that's "only" 16,2% shield hp and each 12,2% sig radius and agility (less sig and more agility, obviously).
I'm pretty sure the two-link Stork used an implant, so those bonuses were quite a bit higher. He boosted one shield (shield boost/remote shield boost cycle time) and one info (I think electronic hardening was chosen, meaning ECM-defense).
Lastly, Cean had the third shield link, boosting our shield resistances. With my skills the bonus would be 16,2%, I assume Cean gave us more than that.

As you can see, it adds up.

Edit: typos

[Budda Sereda]

Hi Laser, I feel you took my question negatively, sorry to see that, it was absolutely not the purpose.

I'm just trying to learn what should/can I do next time, when I will get BLAP Caracals to the field: they have even lesser resist and tank...

We're also super optimistic at these back of the napkin math deals... it takes way more than 3-5 seconds to recognize you're targeted and broadcast for reps (first ship they took down was a capsule when we started to lock). I'll also point out that especially as a new player you're not used to broadcasting for reps. If we're on point, it takes us 1-3 seconds to notice the broadcast was called. Then it takes 3-7 seconds to lock, and if we're already repping someone, we have to wait 2-4 seconds for our reps to decycle.

That's exactly my point... reaction + lock time with such high income DPS is something which is hard to overcome. And from your video, I see few more things:
1. Some people died without broadcasting for reps.
2. Many cases when at least you land reps, but our cruiser even Moa is died. It means it was only very few logies who landed reps... I imagine with armor reps that would be even worse.

What went wrong on the logi side, was my ability to actually keep track of people who were falling. I was severely underestimating our losses. Thing is when we were catching people (and we were at times) we were holding them up pretty well, which gave me a false sense of security. I saw both people dropping and people holding up well and somehow I was too optimistic. At the same time, I also thought we were breaking something, hoped we were stabilizing our damage. Moreover, for some reason I didn't use shortcuts for my reps this fight, which is bad. Not sure why but obvious mistake is obvious.

I believe the solution for this is to improve communication from the fleet back to FC and Logy FC. Whenever somebody lost his ship he should clearly call something like: Budda is down, -1 DD. This way both FC and Logy FC will know the actual picture.

Also, from your video in addition to 10 T3D I see 3 Harpies and few more smaller things... Yeah, DPS was really high.

If I may advise, I would recommend using hot-keys to switch modules: hitting 1-2-3 to turn on or off the repair module much quicker and precise than to click that with a mouse, it also saves your attention.
I dream there was a hotkey to select a locked object too...

[Analiese Aubernet]

Budda, the math is often less helpful than one might think. A lot of decisions are often made on instict - which is only grown through experiences, often bad ones.

I believe the solution for this is to improve communication from the fleet back to FC and Logy FC. Whenever somebody lost his ship he should clearly call something like: Budda is down, -1 DD. This way both FC and Logy FC will know the actual picture.

This seems helpful in theory but can often clutter comms and obscure the orders that the FC is attempting to give. Part of the responsibility of the Logisitics FC position is to help monitor fleet losses.

[Barbara Blast]

Didn't even notice during the fight Breeze's true agenda revealed

[Budda Sereda]

Like others have said, the math alone never tells the full story.

Budda, the math is often less helpful than one might think. A lot of decisions are often made on instict - which is only grown through experiences, often bad ones.

Does that sound like 'math' means nothing? Should we just give me and keep trying luckily E-Uni provides SRP? I prefer to do a post-factum analysis and see what was the weakest point: not enough DPS or poor focus on primary? Should fleet focus logies first and after that wipe DDs or go into DPS race and kill DDs quicker than lose?

I do believe a reasonable amount of math makes sense. I bet Breeze did his homework, and I hope nobody is offended I'm sharing my thinking process.

Every FC should be able to make a quick call: what applied DPS he and his opponent have on grid, what amount of reps. Math maybe does not give a clear answer, but helps to understand and put at least some baseline.

My summary from today's fight: don't fight same T3D size fleet in T1 turret cruisers. This is the second case when this does not work (first one was my fight vs Raido). I'm going to give it a try with Caracals... will see if it makes any difference.

[Breeze One]

There are many lessons to draw Budda. Many aspects that we did well but could still be improved. I don't think it's helpful to generalize or simplify to one factor. From what I remember of your fight with Raido that was lost largely on poor positioning (warping Rail Moas at 0). This time had its own, different challenges.

At this stage between the Cookie guys, me and Laser (and the videos) I think we've summarized what happened well enough that everyone can take away their own lessons.

I'd like to bring this conversation back to how well the fleet performed overall.

As a Uni, we do not get much experience with large fleet vs fleet combat situations where we do not vastly outnumber an opponent. The huge majority of our fleets end with blobbing large targets, or vastly smaller gangs (just look at our AARs). These fights are a massive step up from our usual roams!

Cookie are an experienced and high SP, dedicated PvP corporation, yet every time we fight them, we have gotten stronger and closer to beating them.

We are practicing skills in these fights, like target switching, fleet logi, positioning, that go well beyond our comfort zone of blobbing Low Sec, and I'm overall very proud and very happy with how we've developed in the past month or so that we've been clashing with Cookie.

Watching Laser's video, while there are obvious failings on our part to work on, I'm actually coming back to my original feeling on the fight which was that the fleet performed really really well in the circumstances.

Cpt Caen mentioned this as well, but its the best I've seen us perform in a equal fleet vs fleet matchup. We were outgunned, and we made mistakes, but I think we can come out of that with our heads held fairly high.

And plus, overall I really enjoyed that roam! Not my most ISK-positive but super fun. Well done everyone!

[Breeze One]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/6 ... h=5e08a9bc

Also this. I don't know HOW it relates to this situation, but it just seems oddly appropriate

[Budda Sereda]

As a Uni, we do not get much experience with large fleet vs fleet combat situations where we do not vastly outnumber an opponent. The huge majority of our fleets end with blobbing large targets, or vastly smaller gangs (just look at our AARs). These fights are a massive step up from our usual roams!

Agree, same thoughts push me to look for arranged fights.

[Captain Cean]

So now its time for my Summary.

Compare Video

I tried to make nice 1:1 Compare Video between our DPS and you Logi, you see most people Broadcast for Reps after they hit arround 50% Shield.

Another Thing from my expierence "Someone" do something (tackle this or that) never work call names cause when you call "someone" everybody expect someone else do it, you callend for scram on the command Destroyer i only had scram on me on the End of the fight (proably Decklin cause i was holding him too)

For the Booster Question 20,6 % Does a Skilled Command Destroyer Boost (Shield links)
the Math looks like this with Boost (for the Kirin)
The EHP (against antimatter) went from 17,9k up to 25,4
the rep on this kirins it self (still antimatter) went from 585 DPS up to 898 DPS so we had 5 kirins after 1 was down we had only 2694 DPS rep on the Kirins kk this sounds big big you should still consider that this was a 30 vs 30 Fight ( +/-3)

You Fleet had arround 17 Moas (+3-4 Other DPS ships)
That means you had arround Min 280 DPS per ship Max 430
That Means you had Between 5600 DPS and 7300 DPS on the Field
We didnt Outgunned you the fleets where actualy on a same lvl

(Battle Report)

There where 2 main Reasons why your fleet couldn't hold the Field it was no Our DPS cause we couldn't break your Reps we Only had enough DPS that we can kill fast enough when someone (arround 2900 DPS) broadcast to slow and this happend a lot of times.

Another Reason was that you guys didn't used your Benefits Cruisers against smaller Ships. Many People said our Signature was to small well that is not right our signature was only a Problem caue you guys made it one. Why can a Tornado oneshot Frigates while it have BS weapon ? Right cause of the Transversal (or because the frigate have none). Why the did you Guys ORBIT FRIGATES ? guys we had small weapons + webs we will always hit you, you where the Big boys this Fight. You orbitet Frigates that you webbed down to 50ms and then use your own speed against yourself. When you are the big ships on the field YOU are slow and easy to hit that means orbiting dont help at anyway to reduce the DMG that means you can just approach on your optimal. And this nearly complet negate our signature.

So Main Issu was some guys Broadcasted to late and used you own speed against yourself (application) .

[Xana McBash]

The only comment I'll make about the Holy Cookie fight:

Captain Cean is absolutely right, the main reason why we lost was because a lot of our pilots were getting bad/nonexistent damage application.
-Some because they decided to orbit+F1. When using medium/large guns against smaller targets, you want to keep your angular velocity as low as possible.
-Others were completely off target, sometimes over 20km from primary. Even though keeping some distance from the target is often a good trick to keep angular velocity low, don't forget that you have to be within optimal range to actually hit.

We are the Uni, we exist to teach these mechanics, as long as we all learned and got better from this fight, it's a whelp I'd take again (in fact, I'm looking forward for the next one)

What went wrong on the logi side,

This kinda irked me, you logibros did nothing wrong.
I had to broadcast at least 3 (probably more) times during the whole fleet, and reps were always on point, and, from what I could tell, the wing never over-repped me (never had more than 6 reps on me)
My Moa survived the whole ordeal, and is safely sitting in UPH, thank you logi, for holding us on grid for as long as you did.

To hell with isk efficiency, we took fun fights.
These cruisers are beefy, giving us a lot of staying power, I hope everyone used that time on grid to improve individual piloting skills.

Please overheat your AIF if you get redboxed by the whole enemy fleet, it might buy you the time you need for the reps to land

[Captain Cean]

First i want to apologise for my phrasing but get angry when people said that that this was an one sided Fight and that they shouldnt take Fights

We are the Uni, we exist to teach these mechanics, as long as we all learned and got better from this fight, it's a whelp I'd take again (in fact, I'm looking forward for the next one)

Like i said you guys Performed realy good. It was realy hard fight for us too, and you guys getting everytime more dangerous.
We see that your Fleets realy improve everytime we meet you.

What went wrong on the logi side,

This kinda irked me, you logibros did nothing wrong.
I had to broadcast at least 3 (probably more) times during the whole fleet, and reps were always on point, and, from what I could tell, the wing never over-repped me (never had more than 6 reps on me)

I can absolutly Confirm this your Logi did a realy good Job there

Another Point When you Have Fleets on this Size you should realy consider lay more Focus on Application and Boosts, Simply Because on Dps ship more make maybe 5% of Fleet DPS more but for example Dedicated Targetpainter could increase the DPS of the Whole Fleet by 15% (even on same size Targets)

And maybe Think about taking another Stork with you next time you will maybe lose 5% but you can bring the last shield link (rapid shielding) that improves the logi cycle time (faster switch beside more rep) and bring information links for example sensor improvement what improve you lock speed again that will help you logi bring fast reps on you.

[Laser Skaron]

What went wrong on the logi side,

This kinda irked me, you logibros did nothing wrong.
I had to broadcast at least 3 (probably more) times during the whole fleet, and reps were always on point, and, from what I could tell, the wing never over-repped me (never had more than 6 reps on me)

I primarily add that as points for improvement in the future, I tend to focus on what went wrong a tiny bit too much. That's just my style and I'm comfortable with it. Mad props to everyone in the wing and thank you all for the support. I try not to put that as "we were bad", rather I want to know what I should focus on for the next engagement.

I tried to make nice 1:1 Compare Video between our DPS and you Logi, you see most people Broadcast for Reps after they hit arround 50% Shield.

<3 Thanks!

Many People said our Signature was to small well that is not right our signature was only a Problem caue you guys made it one.

You are right, I did mean to refer to damage application in general, not just signature when discussing that aspect.

[Sakul Aubaris]

Greetings. Another Cookie here

So unfortunately i was not part of this fight, but i watched the vids and also those of the last few fights against you guys.
We Cookies really enjoy our encounters against you. Not because we mostly come out on top, but because you guys are great and always stand your ground and fight. And we really respect you for that. Also it's really nice to see how you guys improved over the last fights, because it's like a window in our own past.

So now comes a short recap about my history in Holy Cookie and our way from a small FW Corp to the point where we are today. If you're not interessted in this bullshit, just skip this paragraph
I joined Cookies about one and a half year ago, after leaving Nullsec. At that time we were about 5-10 active members and part of Caldari FW. We mostly did small roams and patrols in cheap T1 frigs and from time a fun fleetcomp like battleventures. At that time we did one thing really often and it was really fun: welping.
We grew larger, started our public roams and still welped a lot.
We welped against waffles, snuffed, bebop, no handlebars and countless other groups.
But with every welp we learned a lot and got stronger, finaly beating isk positive and some time later holding the field against a former stronger enemy.
We upgraded our doctrines, started using squishy tactics and reached a point where we qualified for the Alliance Tournament.
The point is, that it all started with welping fleets and gaining exp while doing so. Today we have a solid basemembercount with good expience in smallscale skirmishes in frig to cruiser hulls and any new/random player can easy blend in and is guided by the others.
And i promise you, the day will come where you outplay us and "sweep the ground with our asses" (if this german saying translates).
I'm looking forward to that day and personally think that our encounters will get more challenging and even more fun for both sides.

Enough stupid blarney and back to the fight and some critics.
Alot was already mentioned so i try to pass that.
Something i recon was that you guys don't use overhead.
If you try to break a primary barly holding, as fc call for two or three cycle overhead.
If you are switchting targets maybe call for a bid overhead to increase you burstdamage and maybe break it before reps catch.
I think you could have broken that one kirin with a call for heat on your guns.

Also if you are Primary yourself immediately start overheating your tankmods. You can overhead a invu for some time before it burns out and it can buy you that one volley for you logis to catch reps and save you. If you really pay attention you even can deactivate your tankmods and preheat them to only activcate them moments before you get primaried (but this is risky and i myself only do this if flying amorships).
Also use your probmod in case you are primary! If you are MWD fitted deactived your MWD when you are primary (to reduce your sig) and if you are AB fitted overheat your AB to increase transversial. Overhead tankmods and probmod managment can give you the little edge you need to survive and buy your logis the time needed to catch reps on you. When reps are holding you can deactivate OH again.

Also use shortkeys. They are way faster that clicking. Expecially when broadcasting for reps. The chance to miss the right broadcast bottom when stressed is high. I myself use shift+a for armor and shift+s for shield broadcast.

Wow. Wall of text instead of short and to the point
Sry for that and i hope my english is decent enough to make this not a pain to read.
To all Cookies reading this: flame me on slack if you dare!