[AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

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Breeze One
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[AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Breeze One »

First of the new recurring weekly "Police Academy" fleets....and we caught Public Enemy Number 1!

Feedback form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... rm?c=0&w=1

Formup was excellent, great attendance as always, and a fantastic split between Doctrine DPS, Logi, and a few snowflakes. I deliberately took a few larger snowflakes (Command Dessie etc) knowing they couldn't slide novice plexes - but my aim with the fleet was always for larger targets anyway :)

FC: Breeze One
2IC: Z0x
Logi FC: Laser Skaron
Scout 1: Troven
Scout 2: Eddie Dante
Mighty Boosher: Decklin

We burnt fairly fast up to Black Rise, which was showing quite a bit of activity. Waiting on the Vli gate in Renarelle, scouts called eyes on two Hyperions. They lost them from D-Scan, but we suddenly got two gate flashes.

We grabbed the first one to enter, and Decklin called for points only. It took me a second to realise what he intended, but it was a great call, and I went with it. We booshed off the Hyperion and most of our DD and Logi, and got the gank with no losses. We did miss the second Hyperion due to distance. Great start, and fantastic work by Logi to keep everyone alive under gate guns.

Hyperion +289.08m

We got eyes at this stage on a Holy Cookie AHAC fleet in Vli. I want revenge on Cookie as much as anyone - but not this time :D . We dodged Cookie, but spotted a Raven who was also dodging them, warping towards the Oicx gate. I warped us there immediately, and we managed to catch him as he jumped through.

Decklin pulled the same trick with the boosh, and we took him out. This time the boosh missed several logi, and so we lost Jax's Crucifier sadly. I was slightly worried at this point as we knew Cookie were still in the area, and combat probes were nearby, so we scattered as soon as the kill went down and regrouped in system.

Crucifier Navy Issue -28.14m
Raven +260.23m
Capsule +18.48m

Fight Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS5DUSZED1U&t=164s

In Eha, we saw Daredevil, Kestrel and a Tristan in a plex. I sent vanguard ahead (2x Punishers), but should have sent more. Eddie died before we landed, and B'aldrick was unable to hold the Daredevil (Punishers alone will get outpaced by any AB ship with a scram/web so no shame there)

It does appear though that the Kestrel and Daredevil died shortly after this, so they still appear on the fleet killboard :D

Punisher -8.85m

Kestrel +8.78m
Daredevil +72.59m

Hanging around in Akidagi, we tried to combat probe down an Exequeror Navy Issue. While Jax did his thing, an Algos warped into us. We killed him, but the Exeq got away while we were busy.

Algos +13.38m

Next, a Vexor gang with Logi support warped to our plex. We were already aligned out and I immediately warped us out instinctively - I didn't want to be surprised, and the intel when they had entered system was for multiple logi with them. It was pointed out afterwards that we might have a chance in the fight, and once I was able to calmly review the D-Scan, I agreed. They had 5x Vexors and I think 3x Logi. We warped back to the plex, and I gave instructions that if their Logi were set up at range, Decklin should immediate boosh us (and any nearby Vexors) off. We slid in, and as it happened they were all balled up - so I just called primary on one of the Logi. We were holding initially and they were slowly breaking.

Mindful of the lessons of the Cookie fight, I also told the fleet to lock a second Logi in preparation for any target switching/secondary if the primary went down. This was a mistake. The fleet immediately split their DPS between the two Logi, and the target we were breaking suddenly started holding.

At this point, Cookie's AHAC fleet began landing, having entered system while I was preoccupied calling targets. I called scatter. If Cookie had allied to us maybe together we could have taken it, but we were barely holding against the Vexors, and I'd had no real communication with Cookie's FC prior to them entering, and I was worried Cookie would simply wipe us all out.

We sadly lost Decklin who was tackled, but Cookie won the fight after we left, and so we did snag some killmails - although the fact we had any damage on these targets, neither of whom were called as either primary or secondary, does point to our issues with concentrating DPS.

Inquisitor -4.78m
Pontifex -121.92m
Vexor +32.72m
Vexor +33.2m
Vexor +35.1m

Fight Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9YWiZZM8Eo&t=184s

Finally, scouting us out of system, Troven saw our friendly neighbourhood Phoenix who had welped Adrien's frigate fleet last week. Thos guy has been baiting and welping fleets for weeks now. A true criminal for our Policy Academy trainees! I convo'd the Holy Cookie FC and we agreed to a truce to take out the Phoenix. We all jumped gate and engaged. The Phoenix was still holding up under both our fleets (and Cookie had a hell of a lot more DPS than us!).....until Cookie cyno'd in 2x Supercarriers. Its nice to have powerful friends!

Phoenix +6002.45m

Fight Video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYSR4YTOZI0

Hilariously, Eddie Dante actually ninja'd the loot! Almost 1bn ISK in loot. I'll be distributing between fleet members shortly.

Great end to the roam, and great start to THE POLICE ACADEMY! (I'm making this a thing guys)

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 6,766,017,903.09
ISK Lost: 163,682,207.95
ISK Delta: 6,602,335,695.14
Efficiency: 97.638%

Roam members (28)
Spoiler
Agadeen
B'aldrick Aivoras
Barbara Blast
Breeze One
Burak Oz
Crane Aideron
DeanSherman
Decklin Quark Reiger
Eddie Dante
Gatt2111
Jax Renalard
Kordun Naskingar
Koss Vha
Laser Skaron
Lexara Ellecon
Martins Semah
Mhzentul Lafarius
Noah Ather
Orillion Maxwell
Rezda Nardieu
Rider Isleman
Trillian Ituin
Trixie Lapin
Troven Smalvard
Union Pivo
Z0X Ambrye
Zana Fehrnah
Zeerse Solaris
Last edited by Breeze One on 2017.05.24 15:22, edited 7 times in total.
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Re: Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Breeze One »

What did we do well?

Logi did fantastically well. We had good numbers, I think 5 or 6 initially, and they did great work helping us tank gate guns repeatedly (Can this be a Uni fleet? We didnt lose a single person to gate guns!). Massive props as always to Laser as Logi FC, and to all our Logi, especially the first timers. Keep L'ing up guys!

Decklin's booshes were smart, and well executed. I could have maximised them more effectively by explaining to people what we were doing in advance, but to be honest, I hadn't expected us to do it either, and kind of just adapted strategy on the fly!

Scouts did a great job. Good intel, knew what I needed to hear, and what I didnt, fast to react to, or pre-empt my requests. You guys found the content, and made the fleet. Great work guys.

On a personal note, I thought I was generally fairly decisive, and I was happy with most of the calls I made as well. One or two exceptions, but nothing that caused us too many issues so I feel fairly happy with my FC'ing tonight

What could we do better?

Focus DPS. I'm going to try and edit the recording I made and see if I can highlight that fight with the Vexors. We were steadily breaking the primary Logi, but as soon as we split DPS, he repped almost to full. And looking at the killmails, we weren't just split between the primary and secondary, we were all over the enemy fleet. Focused DPS would have won us that fight (assuming Cookie hadn't 3rd partied). If I call for you to "lock" someone, it just means target, NOT shoot. Equally, check your broadcasts and listen in mumble for the primary target at all times.

Gate discipline. I know that as EWAR, or even Logi, the idea is that you should be at range from the fleet. However when we are waiting on either a jump gate or an acceleration gate, please stay within jump/activation range. For example - there was a gate where we had an Oracle warp to a ping at 200km. I wasn't that concerned as I knew if he aggressed we could immediately jump gate. However one of our EWAR pulled range to around 30km from us, and the Oracle saw his chance and took a few shots. Luckily we still managed to get through before he got the kill, but the point remains, if we're sat on a gate its so we can quickly use it as a tactical option if necessary. Please dont pull range unless I ask, or until I indicate that we're actually about to take an engagement.

Intel. Scouts were great, but I should have asked for more Intel on that Vexor gang when they first appeared in system. Warping off and coming back worked out fine for us, but I should have asked for a D-Scan earlier and evaluated the fleet before it warped into us. Had we engaged the first time we might have gotten some kills before Cookie arrived to 3rd party.

Booshes. I should have been clearer in what we were doing with the booshes once I realised what Decklin was doing. A couple of quick commands would have helped. Again, really need to get more used to Command Dessie tactics myself.

I should have sent more Vanguard through for the Daredevil fight! Its always a bit tricky with Punishers, cos they're super tanky but awful at holding tackle unless they're in a fleet. Should have sent one of our Assault Frigates who had both scram and web.

I had actually meant to pass over FC'ing to Z0x for a bit as 2IC to give him some experience, but it slipped my mind. Sorry Z0x! Next fleet.
Last edited by Breeze One on 2017.05.23 04:10, edited 2 times in total.
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Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by B'aldrick Aivoras »

Thx for the fleet pity RL took me away from the Phoenix but I'll leave this here:

https://media1.giphy.com/media/FgJbAcKy ... 07bc024f24


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Re: Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Decklin Quark Reiger »

Thanks Breeze - I'm consistently impressed with your FCing - really clear strong communication, quick decision making, managing intel, etc. Also, good job keeping in mind the HCOOK composition and calling to extract as the were arriving.

I enjoyed flying the command destroyer, and catching those battleships was great fun. I do wonder about the relative cost of the command destroyer, Vs the rest of the fleet, though. Not really from my own isk perspective, more from the perspective of planning a doctrine, and balancing the costs of the ships.

Normally, I would want to, for example, keep the cost of a logi ship similar to the cost of the mainline DPS. I'm now sitting here asking, "Okay, but why does this matter?" I mean, I know it does, but why?

Is it from a tactical perspective, to make the opposing FC choose between similarly valued targets? Is it related to resists, where if you're putting T2 logi on the line, you want to be repairing a T2 resist profile? Or is it more psychological - so everyone in the fleet feels a highly valued contributor to the fleet success?

Not sure there is an easy answer to this one, just thought I'd put some thoughts out there, and see if anyone else had some thoughts as well. At the end of the day, I had a load of fun flying my command destroyer and that's what matters. Just trying to learn from it as well though.

Any thoughts?
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

I was getting similar EHP to the Punishers once I'd fit a bit more tank. So there should be more considerations perhaps than just isk values, t2 logi frigs would have given us more repping power, not sure it would've made any difference in any of the engagements we had, the Cookies HAC fleet being far too strong anyway.

I have a couple of Ishkurs that I've had for a year sitting in my hangers so rather than keep buying new ships, trying to use up what I already have. We made the Ishkur great again by getting the dread.

I noticed DPS on the secondary an called over comms that "there's DPS on the Augorer", maybe if people weren't listening closely they might have misheard that as an instruction to DPS it, so I should have used something like "DPS is split". DPS seemed to continue on the Aug until we bugged out.
Last edited by Zeerse Solaris on 2017.05.23 05:14, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Laser Skaron »

Decklin Quark Reiger wrote:Normally, I would want to, for example, keep the cost of a logi ship similar to the cost of the mainline DPS. I'm now sitting here asking, "Okay, but why does this matter?" I mean, I know it does, but why?

Is it from a tactical perspective, to make the opposing FC choose between similarly valued targets? Is it related to resists, where if you're putting T2 logi on the line, you want to be repairing a T2 resist profile? Or is it more psychological - so everyone in the fleet feels a highly valued contributor to the fleet success?
That is great food for thought Decklin! My initial reaction is all choices in a roam are purely psychological in a certain sense? All the factors you mentioned are probably valued differently by different players and I'm pretty sure other people have written about this and provided varying arguments for going one way or the other. So with my limited experience, here's a couple of questions I THINK are relevant to think about when bringing a snowflake:

- Does the snowflake stand out in the overview? (if it's just t2/officer modules in the same hull your enemies will probably not now that).
- How big an issue is it if your snowflake dies? (can you continue the roam, do you have to wait for them to reship?)
- If they stand out in the overview, is there a good chance they'll get primaried? (if so, how are you prepared to deal with that?)
- There's a good chance that snowflake dies - can you handle the loss? (isk wise, "score" wise on killboards, and "feels bad man" for yourself) Don't fly what you can't afford to lose still applies.

To me it feels like this problem doesn't and shouldn't have a correct answer, but maybe a better decision process for thinking about bringing in a snowflake may help reason about whether it's worth it or not.

But, I digress... Roam Feedback!

Thanks Breeze for the roam! But I dare say, most interesting stuff that happened this roam, happened because of our snowflake, Decklin. (woohoo!)

We got 2 great boosh practices with the Hyperion and the Raven. Good discussion on comms for both fights, on how logi missed the train both times. Mainly due to instinctive logi piloting where you want to pull range, and our unfamiliarity with booshing.

Also good fight with the Vexors. Worth discussing.

- Decklin slid gate first. He immediately realized that was a mistake and mentioned it on comms. Would involve him getting primaried, scrammed and not being able to boosh anyone.
- Logi priority became keeping Decklin alive as it would take a while until those Vexors manage to switch targets. That plus the only way out for him now is if we take out all of their Vexors eventually.
- Lost 1 logi there (no broadcast, and he went down quite fast). Worth mentioning our logi had half the EHP of our mainline DD, and we should have been a bit more aware of that. In hindsight this means I'm not sure how long logi would manage to keep each other up in the fight.
- Cookies were coming in and extraction was called. Quite a lot of confusion on comms whether that was the right call or not, but eventually FC reinforced that decision and we ALL managed to get out, good job everybody (Decklin was pined down and was lost long before extraction was called).
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Breeze One »

Hey Decklin, thanks for that!

On the Command Dessie specifically, I hadn't realized it was that expensive actually! (Blah blah Breeze doesn't understand Command Dessies etc)

One element is definately personal comfort with flying a more expensive ship, but I also think it comes down essentially to a judgement call on the cost (100mn ISK+) vs benefits.

Benefits:

With boosts, the Punishers hit crazy(er) tank levels, with T2 level resists. That's really powerful and probably saved a few people on this roam, but on the other hand, does it win us many fights we would otherwise lose or are the situations where the boosts makes a decisive difference relatively rare? I'm conflicted but I'm leaning towards the latter, at least with the fights we are getting at the moment.

The Booshes. The Booshes we did on the gates were fantastic calls and certainly helped the fight, but as with the boosts, did they ultimately change the outcome or just make the fight a little easier? Again I'm leaning the latter.

Now, if we had slid into the Vexors and found their Logi at range, and we'd pulled off the Boosh on their DD, then that would probably have won us the fight, and I'd be praising Command Dessies to the stars. But it didn't happen, and again, I feel like the scenario where we can use this to change the outcome of a fight we would otherwise lose is...rare (due more to the type of fights we tend to get than the strength of the tactic)

So, on reflection (and bearing in mind only used Command Dessies a few times) I'm feeling the benefits, while nice, maybe don't outweigh the costs (for T1 Frigate fleets) - Something I'll try to bear in mind next time. That's still a judgement call though so be interested to see what others think.

There is another element though - which is practice! I certainly need practice FC'ing with C-Dessies, for those occasions where they really really DO make the difference between winning and losing (cough arranged T1 Cruiser fights) and it's nice to use their tactical advantages. I definitely appreciated being able to use your help with this fleet. Just like Laser says, I certainly learnt a lot from it!
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Laser Skaron »

Breeze One wrote:One element is definately personal comfort with flying a more expensive ship, but I also think it comes down essentially to a judgement call on the cost (100mn ISK+) vs benefits.
Somehow I completely forgot about the obvious argument regarding benefits.

If you got 15 T1 frigates as mainline DD, adding an extra DD player doesn't massively impact the comp, whether it's a T1 or T2 hull. The extra cost that goes into T2 doesn't give you a massive boost to the entire fleet. There's a higher probability of providing a juicy target for the enemy rather than actually improving the fleet.

Obviously, if everyone upships to T2, that's a different story.

The same argument doesn't apply to snowflakes with different tactical capabilities (hics, ewar, command dessies, smartbombers or whatever...).
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Breeze One »

I noticed DPS on the secondary an called over comms that "there's DPS on the Augorer", maybe if people weren't listening closely they might have misheard that as an instruction to DPS it, so I should have used something like "DPS is split". DPS seemed to continue on the Aug until we bugged out.
Just for the record (and I'll try and post the video when I have time to edit which shows this fight) but both the primary and secondary targets called were Augorors. No other targets were ever broadcasted or mentioned in Mumble (at least not audible on my comms!) Anyone shooting a Vexor kinda shouldn't have been. Pretty sure you were on the Primary with us Zeerse, but just for anyone else reading it.

Thanks for calling the split DPS, I hadn't noticed at first. After you pointed it out to me I started giving some slightly shouty orders to focus on the primary and not DPS the secondary, but as you say, DPS continues to be split until we warp out.
Last edited by Breeze One on 2017.05.23 07:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Eddie Dante »

And again, great fleet! Spend the last ten minutes being flabbergasted i had just ninja'd more then my own net worth. It was an impulse action really: when the calls for more DPS grew stronger i thought: f*ck it, lets approach for minimal transversal. So i found myself next to the wreck. My (not immensely sincere) apologies to Holy Cookie ;) From what i understand Breeze has been in touch with them about the loot though, so all should be fine.

About the fleet itself, not much comment from me, nice and clear organisation, comms and leadership. For the command dessies, its my simple opinion that as long as we can afford it, we should use one.
Edit: i was one of the split dps'ers. Figured i'd tackle the other augoror already but accidentally set my guns on it too. Not gonna happen next fleet.

I feel my scouting is improving, though i still have the idea Im pinning stuff down with dscan too slow. Aside from determining range with the slider followed by checking the plexes/asteroids in that range with a small angle, does anyone have any pointers on how to improve?
Any other improvements regarding my scouting are also highly appreciated.
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Troven Smalvard »

Eddie Dante wrote: Edit: i was one of the split dps'ers. Figured i'd tackle the other augoror already but accidentally set my guns on it too. Not gonna happen next fleet.

I feel my scouting is improving, though i still have the idea Im pinning stuff down with dscan too slow. Aside from determining range with the slider followed by checking the plexes/asteroids in that range with a small angle, does anyone have any pointers on how to improve?
Any other improvements regarding my scouting are also highly appreciated.
Eddie as scout/tackle you should be tackling something other than the primary so that's good ( i havent checked mails but i'll be on the vexors that died to cookie) normally scout dps isn't significant so better to concentrate on keeping tackle and keeping alive! you were in a mainline dps ship and scouting so 2 jobs really so i'd forgive you not immediate getting dps right first cycle ( Breeze may not he's more ruthless then me :lol: )


as for D-scan.... practice practice practice is the main thing.
your doing the right things, distance and angle,
I tend to do the opposite way round, if you jump in and you have poss targets on long D in a FW system i normally just go straight 5degree and spam the plexes in order of most likely depending on ships, if i blank then i'll start the rest - but thats my personal preference and what i got used too, not saying its better/worse

assign a hot key for "look at" and one for dscan if you haven't already it really speeds up looking round multiple possibilities

my other trick is i talk far too much, if you saying stuff then FC things your on the ball :roll:
on a serious note, i thought your intel was good, concise & clear - again i tend to prescribe to give more info the better hence my drivel , FC will tell you if there are aspects they don't want to hear for future reports.

keep going, and keep dying gloriously while trying.


PSA i'm by no means the best but do scoot a fair bit, i'm very very happy to take any newbies through a crash course and practice in game when i'm in and around, and/or back seat you your first time out in a real fleet if you want to try just hit me up in game mail or convo or in LSC slack, and we can sort it out

Laser Skaron wrote: - Cookies were coming in and extraction was called. Quite a lot of confusion on comms whether that was the right call or not, but eventually FC reinforced that decision and we ALL managed to get out, good job everybody (Decklin was pined down and was lost long before extraction was called).
I was one of the ones in comms at that point talking, but trying to push to restate, Breeze made decision to scatter and called it, there was some um and ah from from some people about stuff. I'm a firm believer once scatter called, don't change mind or we get split and straggle, we can always regroup and return after.

Breeze you made a quick and clear call but my constructive crit is, in a situation like that FC should get strict and cut people off, your decision is final no democracy, i think you could be a bit more rude if you need too and repeat "shut it and do ...X" its not often its required. (I know you can do it, you started that way with the guy trying to jam the oracle guns with his corpse at the gate)

however overall you managed the cat hearding excellent in this fleet aligns, warps etc seemed smooth form my position and i only one saw one lemming all fleet! 11/10 :D
but no body died to gate guns on uni fleet 1/10 ( i tried my best, Null made me lazy, but i think it was decklin that shouted me off in structure :p )
Logi - you guys were on the ball especially in T1 logi on T1 resists


Finally, as some how this post has got longer than the entire thread
Your looting is by far the best bit of the fleet for me....
I heard something along the lines of

UNIBRO 1: awww we should have looted the wreck lol
UNIBRO 2: cookie would have just welped us if we stayed
EddieNinjaSan: i got a bit of the loot
*links purple mods and multiple X-types in fleet chat
Breeze: dock up now!
Eddie: where are you guys? still in Ne..
Breeze: it doesn't matter dock up NOW!
Troven: Eddie you're my new hero :raritywink:
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Breeze One »

I'm quite certain no-one cares, but I've cut down my video of the fleet to 3 short fights, if anyone wants to review. I know I enjoy reviewing them to learn.

No comments on my screen set up...I was trying something new. Didn't quite work.

In addition, I agreed in the end to split the proceeds of the loot with Cookie. Kane and the sub-cap guys were (as you saw in local) totally fine with us keeping the whole amount, but the Super Cap pilots who put their billions of ISK on the line to get us the kill started moaning. Split ISK gives us 450mn ISK profit still, which split between our 28 pilots on the roam, gives us roughly 16mn ISK each. Will send it over.

Raven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS5DUSZED1U&t=164s
Vexors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9YWiZZM8Eo&t=184s (maybe skip to 3mins in...should have cut this down more)
Phoenix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYSR4YTOZI0
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

Breeze One wrote:
Raven https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS5DUSZED1U&t=164s
Vexors https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9YWiZZM8Eo&t=184s (maybe skip to 3mins in...should have cut this down more)
Phoenix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYSR4YTOZI0
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Ersin Oghuz »

Nice AAR and fleet o7
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Re: [AAR] Police Academy I: Punishers - "Falling like a Phoenix"

Post by Rose Alice »

Hey breeze,

I saw those videos and I really liked your FCing ability,
But you mentioned in the post before this your your experimenting with your screen layout?
I think it looks fine. Just make sure you fleet tab shows fleet history, and take you fleet/bues/corp off your pvp tab, makes looking for targets that much harder,
and if you do get a local spike with ships landing it again makes it harder to realize since you have to scroll through all your blues.

Apart from that i think you seem to be doing wonderful as an up and coming FC and ive subscribed to your yourtube channel for more great videos.
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