[AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

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Adrien Claremont
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[AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Adrien Claremont »

Well guys, it's not every day that you whelp the fleet twice and STILL didn't get a single kill for the entire roam!

Last night was my final kitchen sink roam as part of the FCC. I was hoping it was a good one and in a way, it was. We managed to get numbers up into the low 30s, which was a huge plus for the fleet, however fights were very very thin on the ground. Of those fights we did try our luck at, we didn't come out on top. That said, the key point which I tried to highlight at the start of the fleet, is that this was a learning fleet for newbros. The priority wasn't to get amazing Dreadnaught kills (although they are certainly nice!) but to make sure that we are getting the basics of fleet movement right and trying to have some fun along the way. I do feel we achieved that quiet well, all things considering.

FC - Adrien Claremont
2IC - Decklin Quark Reiger
Scouts - Biwako Acami, DonBasuno Ichosira, Laser Skaron

Our first tasty encounter was in Nennamaila. I had scouts in two separate systems and recieved word of a 10 man cruiser gang in Immuri. I'd initially called the fleet to head over to the Immuri gate when Laser called that there would be flashies jumping into us at the gate we were currently on. I called the fleet to hold, however it was too late and we were all split up. After a couple of minutes of confusion (sorry guys) we all regrouped on the Immuri gate in Nen. At this point a flashy VNI jumped into us. My initial thought was that he was trying to bait us into fighting for the fleet on the other side. I called the fleet to yellow box him only so that we could see what their next move would be. As local spiked and the enemy fleet loaded grid, the VNI started to take damage. I immediately thought that they were not together, so called the fleet to primary the VNI in an attempt to third party on the kill. The enemy logi quickly went flashy and the VNI began to rep, which quickly made me rethink things as they are not actually fighting each other.

Someone from our fleet must have started to shoot the VNI before I called for DPS, but oh well, too late. I then called a switch to one of their Augorors however naming tanking with a name like Adrien isn't that effective and I was quickly targeted. I made it off grid and Decklin took over as 2IC, however as we couldn't break their logi and we were starting to haemorrhage losses, we scattered.

Maulus -8.18m
Merlin -11.69m
Atron -4.25m
Merlin -3.58m
Punisher -6.6m
Atron -4.85m
Atron -3.72m
Kestrel -8.46m
Merlin -11.81m
Atron -3.15m
Condor -3.94m
Capsule -0.01m

We'd been out for an hour by this point and called in Ichoriya to reship before heading back out.

Scouts found a Worm in Hikkoken. Super kitey, the scouts had a tough time holding him before the fleet could land and help out. I believe Laser burnt out his point, Decklin was popped, and unfortunately he got away.

Executioner -19.78m

A couple of jumps over and the scouts call a Cruor in Oinasiken. As the fleet lands, so too does a Stratios. The Stratios is called primary but he quickly nopes himself off grid and we switch to the Cruor. The Cruor managed to pop our scout and also get away before we can land secondary tackle. Very disappointing.

Slasher -3.56m

In Hikkoken we get word of a couple of Dreadnaughts sat on a gate. As the fleet moves closer, the Dreads had made their way over to a nearby Citadel and scouts were playing around trying to bump them off the tether ring. Obviously they were not having much luck, and the call was made to have a laugh and get the fleet in there too to see if we could bump them off or bait something else to find. As we get closer, the scouts call that the Pheonix had warped to the Nennamaila gate. We quickly rush over to see him jump through. Having been out for two hours now, I think we were all getting a little content starved and just wanted to do something so we went for it. We knew he would likely be cyno fitted but hey, it was only a bit of fun to end the night.

I think most of us were supprised at how well he applied to frigates with the help of a target painter. As he slowly whittled our numbers down, a second flashy gang joined us to help third partying. Guys where reshipping as fast as they can, both into new T1 frigates or just newb ships with a scram. As he was approaching 30% armour I think we all thought that we might actually pull this off but then suddenly he repped back up to full shields. We were just too slow and lost too many. What was left of us scattered and we called it a night. The fleet disbanded and we made our way home.

Merlin -11.79m
Merlin -15.97m
Maulus Navy Issue -29.34m
Atron -5.45m
Thorax -17.82m
Griffin -2.78m
Slasher -4.23m
Tristan -1.15m
Condor -2.78m
Punisher -6.47m
Merlin -15.24m
Tristan -5.34m
Punisher -6.59m
Executioner -11.44m
Vigil -0.63m
Nereus -23.41m
Merlin -5.33m
Atron -0.85m
Punisher -4.14m
Ibis -0.02m
Tristan -4.04m
Merlin -11.17m
Atron -4.72m
Merlin -7.21m
Tristan -10.28m
Punisher -12.32m
Atron -3.06m
Reaper -0.02m
Impairor -1.43m
Velator -0.01m
Tristan -12.68m
Reaper -0.02m
Reaper -0.02m
Tristan -6.62m
Impairor -1.43m
Velator -0.01m
Tormentor -18.79m
Impairor -0.02m
Reaper -0.02m
Tormentor -14.06m
Capsule -0.01m
Impairor -0.02m

ISK Destroyed: 0
ISK Lost: 372,281,749.27
ISK Delta: -372,281,749.27
Efficiency: 0%

The Good

Really solid turn out of guys wanting to roam, including a huge number of newbros. I don't think I've FC'd a fleet up into the 30s before.
As always, fleet discipline top notch with the only time that we really became split up and disorientated was the confusing in Nen prior to the cruiser brawl.
While the area was empty, Scouts did a great job of finding what few fights we did get.

The Bad

FC was indecisive a number of times. This was brought up at the post fleet debrief on comms and I do agree. A prime example was that by being indecisive on which fight I wanted to take, the feet became split up in Nen and then had to mess around regrouping.
FC comms were bad. I'm not sure why, but last night mumble was really playing up with me either just dropping out completely or breaking up. I've no idea what the issue was, I can only apologises.
Lack of content. While ultimately outside of our control, the area was just really quiet tonight regarding what we could fight in T1 frigates.
Not a single kill. I know at the end of the day it doesn't really matter, however I always want to make newbro fleets as exciting as possible to try and get them hooked into PvP, and therefore joining more fleets in the future. While we had the odd moment of excitement, such as the Phoenix brawl, I imagine the majority of the fleet was quite dull for most of the fleet.

As I'm taking part in the FCC, please take the time to fill in the FCC fleet feedback form. https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 8&t=104019

For those taking part in the CCI, this fleet will count towards your LSC participation.

For those who lost their ships (I think we all did in the end!), everyone is able to claim a free replacement hull through the Uni SRP.

Thanks guys, Derpatron fleet tomorrow!
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Zeerse Solaris
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

I expected more snowflakes than just myself, so even Z name tank fails when you're the only faction frigate on the field. Primary by the VNI as the rest uncloaked, I jumped gate expecting everyone to be called to do the same. That was just a forerunner to getting blapped by the Dread, which at least is a fun thing to have on your killboard.

I think comms issues were 2 way, twice scouts called flashy frigate jumping into the fleet (1 garmur and 1 keres on separate occasions) and the command was given to jump i.e. away from a prospective kill which I don't think was intended.

Personal preference would be to whelp with a sea of green on the killboard so the ship can die with satisfaction.

Even on kitchen sink, maybe an instant locker or as fast to one as you can get in t1 frigates should be a role requested, with maybe someone else buddying up with a remote sensor booster.
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Analiese Aubernet
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Analiese Aubernet »

Cross jumping a garmur in a t1 frigate blob like this can actually be a good idea - the garmur can outrun, outpoint, and outscram any T1 frigate tackle, kill it, then just warp off.

With regards to the dread - I'd like to encourage you to look at the killboard of the pilot before attempting a fight like this. The pilot that you fought had lost one Pheonix recently (december): https://zkillboard.com/kill/58291665/

First of all, you can see its a very blingy fit with a Pith C-type AIF and faction web/scram/paint/neut. Second, you can see that he uses application rather than damage rigs, which means if he uses faction or T2 precision torpedoes, he will apply decently to frigates in combination with web/scram/paint. Third, you can see that he has an active tank - capital ASB. This allows the FC to count reps and know whether he's actually on reload (as he would seem to be if you got him into 30% armor) or just bait tanking to see if you're going to escalate.

Also, I'm not exactly sure what the rookie ships were meant to accomplish here.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by DeanSherman »

Look what Holy Cookies did! https://zkillboard.com/kill/62324017/
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Laser Skaron »

DeanSherman wrote:Look what Holy Cookies did! https://zkillboard.com/kill/62324017/
There's a pretty significant difference there, when you bring Bhaalgorns and Guardians and a bunch of battleships to a fight. We were in kitchen sink frigates. I don't think it's fair to compare their scenario with ours in any way.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Rixla »

I think you missed a death here: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62309764/. Not sure how you gather the kill mails and such, but I was in this fleet and got podded, too.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by DeanSherman »

Laser Skaron wrote:
DeanSherman wrote:Look what Holy Cookies did! https://zkillboard.com/kill/62324017/
There's a pretty significant difference there, when you bring Bhaalgorns and Guardians and a bunch of battleships to a fight. We were in kitchen sink frigates. I don't think it's fair to compare their scenario with ours in any way.
Well, i meant that people can look at fit, i think it was same as day before, and get some information, like how much dps it could give or take, etc
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Analiese Aubernet »

You can look at the fit, and then you can compare it to the fit that he was previously using. With exception of some bling upgrades, the fits are identical - this is why I would encourage scouts and FC's to look at zkill for bigger ships before they make the decision to engage.
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Calrik Aakiwa
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Calrik Aakiwa »

Just some feedback for the FC. Going through lowsec in kitchen sink frigates with no logi, you are going to have a really bad time. Especially around Nennamaila area. Frigates engaging a Project Mayhem phoenix was never going to end well for you.

Also I don't see any interceptor scouts? Did you have any or they just didn't die? What I suggest is using two interceptors forward scout and a rear scout to make sure you don't get caught from behind. What would also help the uni great even if they do get compromised to get book mark packs for pings. Through the areas you roam around in a lot. Having pings and better scouting could have prevented so many losses.

I am actually really surprised your whole fleet didn't get smart bombed.
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Laser Skaron »

Calrik Aakiwa wrote:Also I don't see any interceptor scouts? Did you have any or they just didn't die? What I suggest is using two interceptors forward scout and a rear scout to make sure you don't get caught from behind.
Interceptors tend to be expensive for new players just getting into scouting, we can field a fast T1 frigate for a 10th of the cost. Yes, we may miss some content as they are not as effective in that regard, but they are just as good for learning how to scout. Plus ceptors are more difficult to pilot.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Calrik Aakiwa »

Laser Skaron wrote:
Calrik Aakiwa wrote:Also I don't see any interceptor scouts? Did you have any or they just didn't die? What I suggest is using two interceptors forward scout and a rear scout to make sure you don't get caught from behind.
Interceptors tend to be expensive for new players just getting into scouting, we can field a fast T1 frigate for a 10th of the cost. Yes, we may miss some content as they are not as effective in that regard, but they are just as good for learning how to scout. Plus ceptors are more difficult to pilot.
As long as the t1 scouting frigate is using a frigate with a quick align time and warp I don't see a problem with that. What my concern would be is t1 frigates not getting through the insta lock gate camps that are common through lowsec and not having the tank to survive a single smart bomber. Slashers are probably the best t1 inty replacement imo.

Im not really agreeing that interceptors are too exepensive but I do get people may not have the skill to fly one properly.

Curious what the thinking was behind engaging that phoenix with what you had, did you guys actually think you could kill it? or did you just wanted to feed the fleet to the phoenix for fun?

You guys aware that if that phoenix was even remotely in trouble are cyno would have dropped and you all would of died and the phoenix lived anyway?
Last edited by Calrik Aakiwa on 2017.05.18 06:11, edited 1 time in total.
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Adrien Claremont »

The Phoenix fight was never a serious thing. I don't think any of us thought we would actually be able to win, however after being out for two ours and not finding much the agreement seemed to be lets YOLO into it for the lulz. It was just a laugh, and that's why we had people reshipping into rookie ships with scrams too. Or at least I found it funny to keep a Dreadnaught tackled in a rookie ship. I think it was the first time a lot of the fleet actually saw a capital ship on grid with them.

We did have scouts, they were just in T1 frigates too. I'd argue we'd loose out on a lot more content with our scouts not being able to enter novice plexes by being in an interceptor.

The idea behind flying kitchen sink frigates, and having these style of fleets at the beginning of the FCC program, is to intentionally make things simple and to allow both the FC and pilots to focus on the basics of a fleet. That is my interpretation of the concept, at least. Not leroying through every gate we move to, warping to a scout if/when they something tackled, that kind of thing. Form up is also a lot easier when you don't need to worry/care about everyone is flying, further taking the pressure of a fledgling FC.

Yeah, we had a bad night and didn't find much in the way of PvP. Other nights we've come out ridiculously isk positive in practically the same fleet composition. Like I mentioned in the OP, I do find it disappointing when we don't get to kill much, a little bit because that's what we all enjoy to do, but primarily because it could leave a sour taste in the mouth of our newbros who might then take a while before coming back out on a PvP fleet. I want their first fleet to be full of excitement to get them hooked on it. To measure the success of this kind of learning fleet though, in my eyes, is not by how much we killed but by how much people learnt. I think the vast majority learnt a lot, myself included, so I am still happy with how things turned out.

For me, and this was something else that was raised again on my fleet last night, the bookmarking comment is definitely something I need to stop being lazy about and to sought out. I just simply haven't going around to doing it outside of Uph since starting these kinds of fleet for the FCC.

Thanks for the comments guys.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Breeze One »

Adrien - on the tactical pings - I spent several hours last week burning several pings on every single gate in every system in Placid / Black Rise.

I was keeping them for the Cookie fight, but my intention was always to make them available to the FCC after that.

Now you've reminded me I'll get on that. Look for a thread on the FCC forum shortly.
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Re: [AAR] Kitchen Sink Frigates 15/05/2017

Post by Calrik Aakiwa »

Don't get me wrong, I get how exciting engaging a phoenix can be especially when nothing much else is going on. Im just being over critical because one of the main things an FC should learn right from the start is knowing what you are getting yourself in for when you engage and to always have an exit strategy preplanned in case things go south. Learn how to avoid stuff you can't fight and engage the stuff you can and then disengage and extract safely.

Its good to practice this every fleet so it becomes second nature
He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight. He will win who knows how to handle both superior and inferior forces. He will win whose army is animated by the same spirit throughout all its ranks. He will win who, prepared himself, waits to take the enemy unprepared. He will win who has military capacity and is not interfered with by the sovereign.
-Sun Tzu
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