Harass Us, War Target? I Think Not.

[Arashi Shizukana]

Fleet: Impromptu WT defense in Amygnon and Jufvitte, at around 01:00 May 14th.

Tl;DR: We killed a 2 bil Vargur. Saltiness ensued.

The story:
Having wrapped up Decklin's Hyperkitten fleet in Oulletta, reports were coming in of a Vargur harassing Unistas near Citadel 101. Several of us joined up with the current HSC fleet in 101, and reshipped into larger, armor fit ships. After a brief period of deciding how to configure ourselves and gaining intel on the situation, we formed a fleet. I volunteered to FC, and the rest of the fleet agreed.

We first played station games with the Vargur and its OOC booster at X-Sense 5, as the Vargur would occasionally redock after having some significant damage to it. It also warped off to another station a couple times, as well as to the Juf gate, but would always bounce back to the X-Sense station. This continued for about 30 minutes, when it became apparent the Vargur had absolutely no intention of fighting us. With one cloaky scout posted in Jufvitte on the Amygnon gate, a second cloaky scout monitoring the other station it had previously warped to, and a third on the Jufvitte gate in Amygnon, we had intel covered. There was additional intel from other Unistas posting in various channels, and it appeared there was a large battleship fleet (comprised of 3 Scorpions and 3 Megathrons, along with 4 Exequrors) headed our way. We would also have additional reinforcements from Oulletta, in the form of a second, 30-man, hyperkitten fleet. The fleet agreed it was best that they stay off Juf's local, as it could scare the WTs away.

After this thirty minutes had passed, in order to make it seem as if we were headed home, I had the fleet dock up in 101 from X-Sense, with one cruiser on-grid to maintain eyes. As soon as we had docked up, the Vargur engaged the cruiser we left behind, and our fleet went to fight it, now that it had a weapons timer. Soon after engaging the Vargur, the WT's BS fleet was upon us, and seeing that there were too many I had the fleet dock up in 101 from X-Sense. Unfortunately, one of our logi ships got killed in the process, when it was trying to align back. I did go into that fight knowing the Vargur was baiting us, and wanted to see what the WTs would do.
Loss (25 mil):
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418330

The fleet undocked immediately after docking and waiting out weapons timers, and proceeded to watch to see what the WTs would do. As luck would have it, they warped to the Jufvitte gate at zero and proceeded to jump through. The fleet followed, and I had the hyperkitten fleet meet up with us on the Amy gate in Jufvitte. Ace Fear, their FC, warped in at their optimal range, and proceeded to assist us in blapping the WT fleet. After forcibly ejecting 2 of their OOC logi from their ships, the other 2 warped off, along with the rest of the fleet (several jumped back through to Amygnon and docked and logged out). This just left one very lonely Vargur. One VERY alone Vargur. And what does Uni do best? BLAP. The Vargur did manage to take out a couple of our fleet members, though mostly just Tristans. Our logi managed to hold much of the damage, though we were unable to save the hyperkitten fleet as we weren't able to merge up. With our logi unable to see their broadcasts for reps, several unfortunately went down in the process. After a few moments of repping and a solid minute of bastion mode, the Vargur went down, much to our satisfaction.

Grabbing the loot, we went back to Amygnon. Once repairing and donating the loot was done, we proceeded to track down the WTs and see if we could hit them again. Unfortunately, they had other plans, and either ran out of system in a shuttle, or just plain logged off. It was also during this time that our WTs tried to justify their losses, saying they had meant to lose a 2b Vargur. To be safe, I had two of our scouts track down a few jumps from Amygnon and see if there were any WTs in local, though none appeared. Figuring our high-sec routes were safe, I disbanded the fleet.

I'd like to thank all the pilots who participated in the fleet, as I could not have done it without you. You guys are responsible for our WTs being salty.

Kills (2b):
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418317
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418324
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418325

Losses (78 mil):
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418319
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418320
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418321
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418322
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418323
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418326
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418327
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418328
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418329

ISK Positive: Positive

[Ersin Oghuz]

Man that is so good! Well done.

[Zeerse Solaris]

Well done. Thankfully, it seems the time where war targets were perceived as unengagable pvp experts is passed.

[Tlymphocyte]

Well, that's a positive killboard forever!

A lot of credit to the FC of the Tristan fleet for coordinating with the HSC fleet and taking us through low-sec to avoid neutral scouts and get the jump on them. Sun Tzu would've been proud of that surprise attack.

[D'ameni Holmes]

Nice job and an excellent write up for someone to understand the engagement,

o7!

[Vertxsees]

Had an absolute blast with this. I am exceedingly happy that I played cat and mouse with this guy outside X-Sense in my Tristan before the fleet formed up; I wonder if he would have stuck around for as long if he didn't have someone to turn into content. I was even able to go isk positive against him 1v1 after losing three ships haha. Very nice to use my CovOps as a source of intel for once, too, instead of just using it to make safe Jita runs. Thanks to everyone who participated, especially the Tristan fleet; couldn't have done it without your numbers and pincer move. o7

[Kallen Brack]

Unfortunately, one of our logi ships got killed in the process, when it was trying to align back....
Loss (25 mil):
http://killfeed.eveuniversity.org/?a=ki ... _id=418330

I've heard it said that, in eve online, most fights are won and lost before you even undock. Using that lens, here's the analysis of my mistakes in this fight.

I've played healer in MMO's for many years. I enjoy the thrill of keeping my comrades in the fight, against all odds. I like to defining success by my teammate's survival rate.

Of course, as I learn this game, I started out DPS. Like every other MMO I've played, start as DPS, learn how to play, then switch to healing seems to be the best progression for a healer.

So when I arrived in Amy and found a fleet forming to take on the WT vargar, I was faced with a choice... X or L? Should I X up as dps, or L up as logi?

In chat and in fleet, there were probably 20 DPS, but there was only 1 logi (shout out to Trevor Grambling!), and he was in an Augor, so needed a cap/heal buddy to work.

So I L'ed instead of X'ed.

We engaged the WT, and played station games for a while.

Then I got red-boxed. The Vargar had aggressed, the station games were over, and the fight had started. I called for reps, and immediately Trevor Grambling got on the job... but my tank was breaking. I was webbed, pointed, and had no transversal. On top of that, 2 WT Megathrons and 2 more Ravens arrived, and had started pounding on my ship.

Trevor Grambling got the heat on his reps, and I got the heat on my hardeners... still dropping. I got some transversal going, but my shields were gone, my armor was gone, and I was down to half structure.

Then my armor started to rise. Trevor Grambling had caught me! Only 2 logi on grid, and one of them (me) was primaried by 5 battleships, and Trevor was keeping me alive! Now my toon has pretty good Logi skills, so I was pretty sure I could keep Trevor up if he was primaried, and everyone else on the field? They would be getting love from both logis if they got primaried. We had this! Trevor Grambling had, single-handedly, saved the op, because we were now unbreakable!

Then disaster happened.

FC called for retreat, and fleet warped us to the Citadel. Everyone, that is, except the primary target of the enemy fleet, who was webbed, pointed, neuted, and at half structure... albeit at full armor (Trevor Grambling, kicking ass again!).

Yep. I got left behind. Webbed, pointed, and neuted from the beginning of the fight... alignment wasn't the issue here.

So, from most of the fleet's perspective, it was pretty much a stalemate, with only minor losses. After all, we engaged a 5 man battleship fleet, which included T2's, and the only loss was a single T1 logistics cruiser.

Me.

I can understand this perspective. The tech/experience/skill disparity was huge. We have been getting our asses handed to us by Supervillians - the killboard isn't looking good. As lopsided as this war is right now, even a stalemate feels like a win.

But from my perspective, a victory was thrown away. Trevor Grambling had single-handedly saved the op, and the enemy had no way to respond. We had won the war of the hanger, and the enemy fleet had undocked into a losing fight. We could tank their damage, and, since they couldn't play station games, they couldn't tank our damage. So what went wrong?

I don't think this fleet understood what Logi can do. I don't think this fleet understood the strengths and weaknesses of a logi wing. I don't think this fleet understood what Trevor Grambling had done, when he caught me at 1/2 structure, then clawed me back to full armor.

I don't think this fleet respected their logi.

At the end of the day, this experience is about how I can learn, how I can get better, what I can do better. So this is my take-away from this fight.

If I had shipped with a CDI Vexor, instead of Logi, then I/we might have been able to neut the point off of our logi. Then when the retreat was called for, the logi wing could have made it out without losses. I could have contributed more to this fleet as DPS/Utility than I did as logistics.

So there's my lesson learned. When shipping with a fleet that I have not flown with, that may or may not know the strengths and weaknesses of a logi wing, I will contribute more by flying DPS/Utility than I will by flying Logi, no matter how badly logi are needed: because I can make the logi better.

To sum it up in three words: I learned to X, not L.

[Arashi Shizukana]

o7 Kallen,
Sorry that I misunderstood the events unfolding over at X-Sense when the enemy fleet landed. I was tracking about 10 Battleships (mainly Megathrons and Scorpions) coming out of warp onto X-Sense, and knew that our current logi wing (2 Augs) would not have been able to withstand the assault, even exempting the 3-odd Scorpions' ECM. As such, I had us tether up on 101 in order to gain better positioning for the next fight, with the Tristans' support.

Again, I'm sorry that you lost your ship during the fight, but unfortunately in times like that one the FC must choose between saving the fleet to fight a better fight, or possibly sacrificing it in order to maybe save one ship. As I knew our odds would be with us with joining up on the Tristan fleet, I decided to choose the former option. In the second fight, we were able to hold four logi on grid at all times, and burn through 2 of the WTs as well as several battleships.

[Mattikus Pathfinder]

I don't think this fleet understood what Logi can do. I don't think this fleet understood the strengths and weaknesses of a logi wing. I don't think this fleet understood what Trevor Grambling had done, when he caught me at 1/2 structure, then clawed me back to full armor.

I don't think this fleet respected their logi.

At the end of the day, this experience is about how I can learn, how I can get better, what I can do better. So this is my take-away from this fight.

If I had shipped with a CDI Vexor, instead of Logi, then I/we might have been able to neut the point off of our logi. Then when the retreat was called for, the logi wing could have made it out without losses. I could have contributed more to this fleet as DPS/Utility than I did as logistics.

So there's my lesson learned. When shipping with a fleet that I have not flown with, that may or may not know the strengths and weaknesses of a logi wing, I will contribute more by flying DPS/Utility than I will by flying Logi, no matter how badly logi are needed: because I can make the logi better.

To sum it up in three words: I learned to X, not L.

Remember that this is a learning experience for everyone. Arashi may have had his own reasons for wanting the fleet to warp off, everyone sees the situation differently. It's nothing to do with a lack of "respect" for the logi; decisions need to be made quickly and you shouldn't take decisions like that personally.

Refusing to sign up as logi again will rob you of learning experiemces, and fleets will still require logi. One extra CDI vexor isn't going to make the difference to neut out all of the WT ships (they likely had more than enough points between them), and if they'd decided to spread points they'd have likely caught far more.

[Kallen Brack]

Refusing to sign up as logi again will rob you of learning experiemces, and fleets will still require logi.

There's plenty for me to learn without logging on as Logi. I'll be X'ing up - just as I've repeatedly explained - but won't be L'ing up if I haven't flown with a fleet, and don't know that the fleet understands logi.

So your stock answer of "rob[ing myself] of learning experiences" is disingenuous. I'm not robbing myself of any learning experiences, I'm selecting my learning experiences. I've chosen not to take the L path with an unknown fleet mostly because I want to learn, not teach, about logi. Perhaps when I know enough to be teaching, I'll consider joining fleets to teach logi, but I'm not there yet.

Soon after engaging the Vargur, the WT's BS fleet was upon us, and seeing that there were too many I had the fleet dock up in 101 from X-Sense. Unfortunately, one of our logi ships got killed in the process, when it was trying to align back.

Part of what has turned me off is the lack of recognition for what the Logi had done. Trevor Grambling had caught me. The after-action report doesn't describe Trevor's success, or adequately explain why the choice to leave me twisting in the wind was made. It doesn't recognize that Trevor and I were successfully tanking 5 battleships, reps were holding, and even suggests that the error was mine, by not aligning! This is just dishonest and misleading.

There's no need to whitewash everything and dismiss any mistakes behind a pretty story in an after-action report. This is supposed to be a learning tool, where mistakes can be examined, better solutions can be determined, not a place to crow about successes and pretend that no mistakes were made.

Sorry that I misunderstood the events unfolding over at X-Sense when the enemy fleet landed. I was tracking about 10 Battleships (mainly Megathrons and Scorpions) coming out of warp onto X-Sense, and knew that our current logi wing (2 Augs) would not have been able to withstand the assault, even exempting the 3-odd Scorpions' ECM. As such, I had us tether up on 101 in order to gain better positioning for the next fight, with the Tristans' support.

Now this is closer to an honest after-action report... but it's still dishonest, and (to paraphrase Mattikus Pathfinder), robbing yourself of learning experiences.

The 4 battleships reinforcements had already landed. Review the zKillmail you linked - it shows the reinforcements were already on-grid. So it wasn't 10 battleships on the way, it was 4 battleships that were already on-grid.

You are no longer in the heat of the moment. You are no longer pressured by the situation, forced to make snap decisions. There is no need to present "alternate facts" about how many battleships were on the way, or weather they were on-grid or in-transit. You know what the truth is. To present anything but the truth in an after-action report is to (again, paraphrasing Mattikus Pathfinder) rob yourself of learning experiences.

It's perfectly acceptable to say things like "I misunderstood the situation" or "I misunderstood the intel I was recieving." This creates the opportunity to learn how to parse incoming intel better, because you recognize you weren't doing it as well as you could. It also creates the opportunity for others to learn how to present intel in a way that's more understandable to the FC.

This opportunity for learning, for improvement, is created by honest assessment, not by white-washed "alternate facts". Call out your misunderstanding of the tactical situation. Call out the poor intel that was being presented. Then you can do better in understanding intel, and those presenting intel can do better in giving you good information.

After the fact, cling to "alternate facts" means that you aren't learning to parse intel. It means that your intel sources don't have the information needed to improve their presentation. You are robbing, not only yourself, but others, by presenting "alternate facts" in your after-action report.

Remember that this is a learning experience for everyone. Arashi may have had his own reasons for wanting the fleet to warp off, everyone sees the situation differently.

If Arashi had "his own reasons", then to not SHARE those reasons with those affected - including me - is to (paraphrasing you) rob ME of a learning experience. Reveal those reasons. Explain the reasoning. Explain the information that informed the decision, explain the process that lead to the conclusion. This isn't some super-secret high-level confidential conference that only those with omega 3 fatty acid security clearance can hear. We are all students of the Uni looking to learn.

You encouraging Arashi to be silent about his decision making process because "reasons" is robbing all of us of the learning experience... and we deserve better. We who joined the fleet and fought the fight deserve to know what went into the decisions, why decisions were made, how decision making can be improved, and what will be done in the future.

We deserve this respect for a few reasons. First, it's tools for all of us to learn how to FC better. Who knows, someone in the fleet, maybe even me, might be FC'ing in the future, and can learn from mistakes that were made. But we can't learn if we are being fed "alternate facts" in the after-action report.

Second, we're the ones losing ships out there. If, indeed, the failure was in me not aligning, then we can all learn how to be better. However, to be blamed for the loss for something I had no control over - it wasn't alignment, it was points, that kept me on-grid, and since I was pointed from the beginning of the fight, aligning sooner would have no effect on my ability to warp off. This is not a learning experience for me, not a learning experience for other fleet members, and not a learning experience for the FC. Presenting "alternate facts" in an after-action report prevents everyone from learning from the real facts.

Third, the most important lessons are being brushed under the table over this whole conversation about "alernate facts" in the after-action report. Logi have strengths and weaknesses. With only 2 logi, there is a glaring, obvious weakness... at least to logisitics pilots. Each logi only gets 1/2 the reps as every other ship in the fleet. This ratio goes down as the number of logi increases - 2/3 for 3 logi, 3/4 for 4 logi, etc.. However, it shows the weakness of a logi wing; when one of the logi gets primaried, it's going to be rough on the rest of the logi.

But Trevor stepped up his game and made the catch. Again, Kudos to Trevor. At that point, Arashi could stop worrying about logi - or any of our cruisers - getting blapped off the field, and just focus on calling targets.

But Arashi didn't understand logi well enough. Hopefully, after this fight, and after THIS writeup, he will have a better understanding, and will be less likely to bail after the logi make the catch. By calling out these "alternate facts" in the after-action report, I'm creating a learning opportunity for all of the University. Learn what logi can do, what they can't do, their strengths and weaknesses, so when they've made the catch and the fleet is safe, you understand that and can make good decisions with the information you have.

Sure, it's not as feel-good as a glowing after-action propoganda piece... but that's not the point of an after-action report. Propoganda belongs elsewhere, after-action reports are for brutal, honest, truthful assessments of every individual's performance - including mine, and ESPECIALLY including the FC. That's where the learning occurs.

And that's the purpose of this corporation. Eve University is a place to learn. It's not just a place to feel good, it's a place for all the students - even those who weren't the FC - to learn and get better.

[Titus Tallang]

I believe you are capable of voicing your disagreement with the FC's decision-making in a constructive manner instead of pointlessly insinuating that he's purposefully misconstruing the situation.

I suggest you do so now.

[Tylenos Targas]

Flying logistics is awesome. You get to literally change the flow of battle at times, changes losses to wins, get your forces to safely extract, save expensive ships at the last moment by pushing every last bit of strength out your own boat and piloting skills. It takes time and attention to learn, needs practice in many fleets, and learning from many losses.

FC’ing can be awesome too, and the inflow of information can be staggering. Fog of war is real, and not all individual situations, not all individual contributions and not all awesome saves can be caught, noticed and processed. There are no thankless jobs in a fleet engagement, but not all thanks can be given at all times.

Don’t give up on flying logistics from a lost ship or two, this is a game where you need to lose many to get better, and where all your friends and fleet mates need to lose their ships to get better too – and there isn’t the option to quickly wipe boss attempt #42 to reset the encounter.

[Kallen Brack]

I believe you are capable of voicing your disagreement with the FC's decision-making in a constructive manner instead of pointlessly insinuating that he's purposefully misconstruing the situation.

I suggest you do so now.

I'm not insinuating that he purposefully misconstrued the situation.

I'm flat-out saying that he is mis-construing the situation. I'm making no comment on his intent, or his motivation, or his reasoning.

Point #1:

I was tracking about 10 Battleships (mainly Megathrons and Scorpions) coming out of warp onto X-Sense, and knew that our current logi wing (2 Augs) would not have been able to withstand the assault, even exempting the 3-odd Scorpions' ECM.

The actual situation: 4 additional battleships - 2 Megathrons and 2 Scorpions - landed on grid after the Vargur engaged, with no further reinforcements inbound.

It's perfectly acceptable if Arashi Shizukana thought there were 10 battleships incoming, including 3-odd Scorpions, during the fight. It's mis-construing the situation to claim there were 10 battleships incoming, incuding 3-odd Scorpions, in the after-action report.

Point #2:

Unfortunately, one of our logi ships got killed in the process, when it was trying to align back.

The actual situation: I was pointed from the moment the Vargur engaged. I didn't get killed when I was trying to align back, I was incapable of taking the fleet warp because of points.

Eve University guidelines about AAR:
https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 98&t=12378

If those guidelines and expectations have changed, then it is your responsibility, as Director of Education, to inform your students of the change.

If you, after honestly reviewing what has been written here, still believe that I have:

...pointlessly insinuating that he's purposefully misconstruing the situation.

then I'll be glad to leave this organization. I'm here to learn, and I can't learn if I'm being presented inaccurate information. Your students deserve no less than that.

We can also take this to private messages if you prefer. I have nothing to hide, but I'm willing to discuss this topic in any format you prefer.

[Laura Karpinski]

Temporarily locked the topic until tempers flare down.

Please remember "Our members treat all players both inside and outside EVE University with respect". That is not happening at the moment.

[Titus Tallang]

Topic unlocked. Please remember to stay civil and provide the truth of events to the best of your ability.