Harass Us, War Target? I Think Not.

[JohnPlayerNotSpecial]

I L'ed instead of X'ed.

Flying logistics is awesome.

To sum it up in three words: I learned to X, not L.

Logi is unthankful at times and sorry you lost your ship, but dont give up ! Where's Cat when you need him.

[Rashar Arji]

I think there are several important lessons to take away from this:

1. Whenever your ship leaves Jita(or other applicable tradehub) consider it lost.
2. Sometimes sacrifices has to be made for the greater good.
3. Some roles of a fleet come without automatic recognition in the form of killmails(scouts and logi primarily). Sometimes a killmail isn't enough either. But rest assured, if you're good in either of these two roles the word will spread and your reputation will preced you.
4. Finally, the number 1 rule of EVE which goes hand in hand with advice 1), don't fly what you can't afford to lose.

[Raido Kudonen]

TL;DR: What Rashar said, but with an example of more experienced PvPers losing logi when we noped out, some quantitative analysis of the situation this fleet faced, and some more explicit constructive criticism.

People get killed all the time when an FC recognizes they're not winning, can't clear additional tackle, and warps out. For example, this highly unfavorable exchange happened when we didn't have enough Guards to hold the Bhaalgorn when half the Guards were getting jammed. We needed a couple more battleships than we had to break the 4 Basilisks and 5 or 6 additional Scythes they brought, and it didn't work out. One of the Guards was tackled when the FC warped us out, and it died about 30 seconds after we warped out.

Like I said, this happens literally all the time. FCs try not to needlessly lose ships (and some FCs feel an additional obligation to logi pilots), but losing ships is part of PvP and trading part of the fleet for operational purposes is part of leading PvP operations. Probably better to

Finally, it's worth noting two operational details from what has been posted so far. The first is that the huge walls of text above seem to rely largely on the factual claim that a logi wing of two Augorors is sufficient to rep each other through the DPS of a Vargur, two Megathrons, and two Scorpions that presumably had anti-logi jams equipped (this is the whole point of the spiel about how there were "only" four battleships and a Marauder to fight). This is simply false - at all Vs, a T2 fit Augoror catches 601 EHP/s from an identical Augoror, or 935 EHP/s if the targeted Aug heats hardeners and the cap buddy heats reps (based on the Vargur's damage profile). Allowing for imperfect application, that means you can just barely hold the Vargur's 966 cold DPS, or maybe even its 1019 heated DPS if you're piloting smart and not getting grappled too hard. Add in around 600 DPS for the Scorpions (with rapid heavies and drones) and perhaps 1800 DPS for the Megathrons and you're not going to hold even a DPS ship with 2 Augorors.

Second, this analysis should make pretty clear why the absolute minimum for ever undocking is 3 logi (if your fleet uses logi at all) and the practical minimum should almost always be 4 logi. So from the distance (both intellectual and emotional) of just looking at BRs, it seems to me that Arashi clearly made the right decision to GTFO when the battleships landed, but the wrong decision in terms of undocking with an objectively inadequate fleet comp (this would have been true even if it was just the Vargur, because you have to be ready for the Vargur using dishonor drones to jam out one of your logi, then trashing the other while it's unsupported). Fortunately, Arashi seems to have used a better fleet comp in the second engagement, so learning is actually happening.

[Rezda Nardieu]

Flying logi is most often thankless but can be lots of fun. We don't do it for the glory, we do it so the fleet can undock in the first place.

Some feedback/comments about the Logi in the second encounter.

While we did have the right amount of logi we were very disorganised. Basically we didn't have the cap chain sorted out at all and we were lucky that no-one from the HSC fleet was engaged (we lost Tristians from the LSC fleet only)

Logi was asked to L up before the fleet, there were three of us. One of us called out that they were logi anchor and I assumed (maybe incorrectly) that they were also Logi FC.

I assumed with 3 logies that we were 1 up, 1 down. It turned out we had more than three and someone asked for cap.

Sorting out the cap chain is pretty important, we didn't have much time before undocking but we should have been on top of this. The logi FC should have a way to get this sorted out (via a logi channel).

We also should have moved down to a sub-channel in mumble where we could have sorted this out without disturbing the rest of the fleet.

[Arashi Shizukana]

Definitely good notes on the logi, I'll be sure to make sure they're squared away before undocking. The second fight was a bit of an exemption to this, as we literally engaged them 1 minute after the first fight, so logi pretty much just had time to get in their ships. In terms of the anchor, I actually thought that the anchor was the logi FC, so definitely misunderstood there. Still glad that logi was able to do well despite the misunderstandings though, and next time I'll check to make sure they're set up.

[Rezda Nardieu]

Arashi, I think as the FC you did totally the correct thing undocking and taking the second fight when you did. My post was just a learning point for the logi pilots.

You shouldn't need to check the logi setup, you just need to assign a logi FC (just tell someone they are logi FC is good enough in a rush) and they should do it.

Delegate as much as you can as FC. Don't feel like you need to do everything.

[Nierte]

Just a comment on joining fleets. In this encounter the DPS squads filled up fast as people joined in, and a lot of people were being auto-assigned into the Logi wing. During the initial fight where we lost 1 Logi, there were 5 or 6 people in the Logi wing, and I thought at the time that we had at least 3 active logi on field from people that had said they could fly Logi in mumble. Apparently that was not the case. During the second fight at the Amy gate in Juf I think there were 8 in the Logi wing.

My suggestion would be that when you join a fleet, if Free Move is set (it usually is), move yourself into an appropriate wing/squad to help keep things organized better. If there are not enough DPS squads, request that more be created. It helps the FC to know what they are working with and helps others assemble watch lists easier.

I'm guilty of this myself in this encounter. I was flying Ewar and we didn't have an Ewar squad so I was just sitting in one of the DPS squads. Definitely don't need Logi potentially adding a blackbird to a watch list and maybe worrying about repping them. I know we had 2 or 3 Ewar so I should have requested an Ewar squad be created.

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On the initial encounter, unfortunately there was not a lot we could do to save the Logi that died. The Vargur was in Bastion mode so we couldn't jam him out to break the point. In an encounter like that there will almost always be 1 or 2 that get left behind due to points, it's an unfortunate reality to calling a retreat. The goal would be to save as many as possible to hopefully re-engage from a better position, which we did.

All said, I thought Arashi did pretty well. He tried to break the Vargur when it was alone with what we had, knowing that the Vargur had support incoming. We were doing well enough but could not break the Vargur's tank with what we had so he called retreat to join with the Tristan LSC fleet. We probably could have retreated a bit sooner, but with the Vargur holding point on the Logi in Bastion mode it would not have made a difference for him unfortunately. As mentioned by others, things happened very fast after the warp to engage the Vargur initially, and intel was a bit spotty at times. With the scorpions landing on grid and only having 2 Logi, it was only a matter of time before both of them were jammed and then the whole fleet might have whelped. I think Arashi made the right call to retreat in that situation, regardless of the Logi's current status at the time.

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As a side note, my first time flying Ewar, and it was fun as hell. I had jams on both of their Megathrons from the time we jumped through to Juf, effectively removing them from the fight and probably contributing to them running away as fast as they did. I think we had 2 other Ewar on grid as well? 1 Jammer and 1 Weapon Disruptor I think. If only that Vargur wasn't in Bastion mode blocking jams, I doubt we would have lost near as much as we did. It was a fun fight though, and I look forward to flying more Ewar in the future.

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Edit: Actually, one point to consider about when we were playing the station games with the Vargur. We were being called to warp to the X-Sense station at our optimals, which for a Blackbird is 30-50k. Unfortunately the Undock for X-sense is on the opposite side of the station from 101, so we were warping in way outside of our optimals. A call was made to dock up and immediately undock, but when you're 30k out, that is a slow process.

Eventually doing it a couple times later it was clarified that we should be warping to the undock bookmark rather than the station itself, but I still saw people that didn't get that memo or maybe couldn't find the bookmark. Please keep this in mind in the future.

[Cassiel Seraphim]

You shouldn't need to check the logi setup, you just need to assign a logi FC (just tell someone they are logi FC is good enough in a rush) and they should do it.

This might work with experienced people who've done roles before, but we're a teaching corporation that has new people all the time. I strongly recommend you actually take the time to explain it, or at the very least (like I wrote below) make sure the one you hand it off to knows what they are doing and they confirms it. Emphasis on them confirming it. Don't assume they know or even heard you.

Delegate as much as you can as FC. Don't feel like you need to do everything.

This is fine and highly encouraged I'd say, just make sure that whomever you delegate it to knows what they are doing. Don't assume, make them say it. Make them confirm they got it.

...

In short, this is something I see often whenever I join PvP-fleets, the casual "Oh people know what they are supposed to do!"-attitude. No they don't, this is EVE University! Odds are nobody told them what to do at all. How do you expect someone to do what they should do if nobody ever told them how it's supposed to be done in the first place? Examples of that are all over the place, for pretty much any and all roles you can take in a fleet.

[Nierte]

In short, this is something I see often whenever I join PvP-fleets, the casual "Oh people know what they are supposed to do!"-attitude. No they don't, this is EVE University! Odds are nobody told them what to do at all. How do you expect someone to do what they should do if nobody ever told them how it's supposed to be done in the first place? Examples of that are all over the place, for pretty much any and all roles you can take in a fleet.

Good points there. I'm pretty sure we had at least a couple people there who were flying their first fleet with Uni. Personnel Officers have been busy the last few days, we we've had a pretty large influx of new people to HSC. Unfortunately it's not the best time for newbros as we have a couple WT stealth bombers cloaked and camped in Amy 24/7 just playing mind games with us. But yeah, definitely can't assume people know what to do.

[Ersin Oghuz]

Also do not forgot to use Ship Replacement and Reimbursement Programs.
For T1 BLAP ships that you lost you can use BLAP SRP
And for the rest (T2 BLAP, CDI & other stuff like dessies and frigs) on this special occasion you can use HSC SRP (The donation from the loot should cover it anywas )

[Titus Tallang]

T2 BLAP is covered by standard BLAP SRP.

[Ersin Oghuz]

T2 BLAP is covered by standard BLAP SRP.

Full Reimbursement or T1 BLAP SRP for T2 one ?

[Titus Tallang]

Same as T1 (we have no contract price for T2).

[Yuri Titov]

Saltiness ensued.

Much salt indeed.

This is not just another MMO and you are not a healer in the same sense as in traditional MMOs, I think this is where our entitled logi pilot is getting his exaggerated expectations from.

Anyways, when you fly logi you generally agree to the following.
Being primaried all the time every time
Dying first most of the time
Not getting on any killmails
Additionally when your FC undocks a sub optimal comp like in this fleet above you agree to certain death while valiantly providing some rep buffer to your fleetmates so they can hopefully win the dps race before you all die.

The fact that you were the only one left behind is actually a positive, if your WTs were any better at this game they would tackle more of you.