[LSC] Shield (Assault) Frigates - 3 engagements

[Budda Sereda]

I think this is one of the poorest fleets which I had. Maybe this is explained by been tired from the recent POCO bashing...?

I think as FC I could do better choices on choosing fights or disengage earlier.

Anyway, we formed around 20 frigates, only 4 were T2, had 3 logies (one of them T2), the rest were frigates, unfortunately, as I learned later: armor frigates too...

Seriously guys, for the shield fleet you need to fly shield ship.

Anyway, there were 3 interesting things during the roaming:

0) Warm-up

Scouts found and tackled Incursys in Dastryns: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62100926/ +0.6M - easy job.

1) BCs in Ostingele

The fleet was in Dastryns when scouts spotted 2 BCs and Griffin on Stacmon gate in OST.

The first my idea was to bring fleet into Stacmon to the OST gate, give a bait for BCs red-box us and get weapon timer and drop fleet on top. But, remembering previous fleet (https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=104310) when BC escaped while we arrived to the gate in Stacmon I decided to try another thing and we get fleet in Dastryns to the OST gate.

I asked 2 scouts to warp end provoke them to engage and once they red box any of scouts - get fleet into and warp-in.
It is hard to say what exactly did happen that time, but I remember scouts reported they got red-boxed. I asked vanguard to jump and warped to the site to point BCs. I believe I did not explicitly ask Scouts to tackle BCs... but don't remember this exactly.

But, while vanguard squad was in warp, BCs disengaged, and scouts dispatched a griffin:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62100960/ +0.4M and lost tristan due to gate guns: https://zkillboard.com/kill/62100979/ -6.8M

Whoever has more details - please share. Let's learn what did we do wrong so BCs disengaged.

To learn: engaging non-flashy targets - align out as soon as you locked the target, and warp away as soon as you took 1 shot.

2) "Killing" Gila

We went towards Nennamaila, scouts spotted a bunch of Caracals so we needed to disengage. At some point, we were sitting in Akidagi on the gate and Gila jumped into us. Scouts did not say about any other ships and I believe Gila was flashy so I commanded to engage.
20-30 seconds later scouts reported more ship landind on the gate (from the other side, Nennamaila)... and at this moment I should have commanded 'scattter'. We started breaking Gila and I wanted to see if we can dispatch it until we take heavy loses...
But, I did not learn that those guys had Basylisks (later I was told scouts reported that, but I just did not hear)...
So we lost half of the fleet:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101361/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101364/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101366/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101368/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101376/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101380/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101383/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101384/
-213M

3) "Killing RS"

After a small break and reship we had still around 13 pilots... including 2 logies; and moved towards Eha. One of fleet members after been podded having no better ship nearby, brought a Vagabond from Amarr. Comments on this are below.

After some scouting when we found nothing at all, a Catalyst jumped through us, we followed him in Jump.. but somehow he escaped, but brought I guess his friend in a RattleSnake. I assume they saw a Vagabond and followed us with it.

My thinking process was: we can kill Gecko and heavy drones and effectively repair damage from small. But, reality appeared to be different.
We got RS into shield when we started losing frigates
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102103/

I assumed it is shield buffer fit: it did not repair damage... we primaried Gecko... get it into 50% Armor, drone was pulled and replaced by smaller things. We primaried RS back.

Somehow, RS's was killing us. I guess it also had RHM (Rapid Heavy Missiles) too and even though they apply poorly, gradually we were taking loses.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102103/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102114/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102125/
After I was killed RS was already 20-40% in armor so I called to keep shooting it, and warped from the site.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102127/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102137/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62102152/

At some point 2IC (dunno who was that), called we don't break it and called to scatter.

I was told, RS with active armor reppers. It started repping later, once it took few of us... I guess, it still had shield reppers because having armor RS would be very stupid and that pilot does fly it really often, and have any RS lost with armor tank.

-241M

As a pilot, I made a mistake and orbited RS quite close so allowed it to web (Grap) me...

Could we take that RS? With 2 logies and flying at range sooner or later it would run out of charges... unless somebody would come up to us and pushed us out of grid. Maybe I'm wrong? please comment.

In fact, that was 2 good fights, unfortunately, we lost both.

Hope this does not discourage you guys and see you next time!

[Budda Sereda]

Comments about using HAC with frigates fleet. Essentially, this fleet was not strict and people were welcomed to fly any shield fit frigates (t1 or t2). Unfortunately, some yet were in Punisher, and later we got Vagabond.

Why is this not the best idea?
1. In armor fit your resistance and buffer is usually low so you can't catch reps from logies effectively
2. In cruiser you are too slow and you can't run away from the swarm of other cruisers as easily as frigates can. In this case you can be easily caught and you ISKs will be wasted.

I always welcome people to join fleets and do as much mistakes as the want, trying to help them and prevent. But I would like to avoid having TOO heavy loses in a fleet without serious reason.

It is not a problem to lose an expensive ship as soon as you have chance to kill stuff and have fun. But it is a poor decision to take your ship and suicide.

Hope this makes sense.

P.S. As a teaching organization E-Uni wants to prepare students to be a strong members in future PvP corporations. One thing you need to learn is to fly a doctrine ship. Unless fleet explicitly called a Kitchen Sink.
P.P.S. I encourage everybody to argue if you disagree: let's hash-out details and fly doctrines properly!

[Auresh Odunen]

In fact, that was 2 good fights, unfortunately, we lost both.

Hope this does not discourage you guys and see you next time!

It didn't go well for us, but it was fun, regardless. I'm looking forward to next time.

Thanks for leading the fleet!

[Breeze One]

Wasnt there, but interesting AAR Budda! I got a bit intrigued by your description of the Rattlesnake and did some digging.

Last Snake that guy lost was indeed an active armour dual-rep fit: https://zkillboard.com/kill/57420318/

Assuming the same fit here, thats a difficult tank to break with what you seem to have had.

On the subject of unusual fits though, thats an...intriguing Ishkur fit Budda

If you switch your rails down to 75mm (as Drones are your primary DPS anyway), you gain enough fitting room to upgrade to a Medium Shield Extender II, a DCU II, swap your Adaptive Invuln for a compact Disrupter (so you actually have tackle on your PvP ship), and use your rigs for additional shield tank. Gets you around 40% more tank at minimal cost to your DPS

[Sweet Pain]

"There is a lesson in every destroyed ship"

https://zkillboard.com/kill/62101364/

Even though it was my first time flying logi and I didn't have a whole lot to do, I still had fun and learned a few things:

* How to watch broadcasts for reps and orbit fleet at a distance
* Calling techniques for scouts. Z0X was a fantastic and efficient scout. His method of using 3rd person while reporting on each system will help me when I continue to work on scouting.

Budda, I think you did a great job finding us content. I don't think a pack of T1 frigates had much of a chance against a group of Gilas so we were destined to lose several on that one.

I appreciate your leadership and drive to find us content!

[Analiese Aubernet]

Ultimately, doctrine and fleet composition is the FC's responsibility. If the doctrine calls for shield assault frigates, then the FC needs to be checking the fleet composition window to make sure that's he's getting shield assault frigates, sufficient logi, etc. The same principle applies to bringing a HAC: if the FC wants the roam to stay shield assault frigates, then they need to call for the HAC to leave fleet or reship.

Engaging a Gila fleet with frigates is usually a bad idea. Even if they don't have logi, and this fleet apparently did, medium drones apply decently to frigates and Gilas are usually fit with rapid light missiles in the highs. These two factors mean that they chew through even well tanked frigates rather quickly.

A final note: especially when going on a kitchen sink fleet like this one appeared to be, you may want to check the fits of your fleet members, especially the newer ones, to ensure that they are following sound fitting principles. This doesn't have to be a "fly this or else thing", but rather a teaching moment. For example, one of the Tristan's that you lost had no shield extender, and the HAC had empty rigs and T1 tank. These are issues that can be addressed before the roam even leaves.

[Budda Sereda]

Thanks all!

[Auresh Odunen]

For example, one of the Tristan's that you lost had no shield extender,

Yeah, that was my stupid mistake. I was reshipping after the first loss, bought the shield extender, and somehow got distracted and missed fitting it. It's still sitting in the hanger for next time.

Though, that brings up a question - what if, during a reship, everything needed for a fit isn't available? Do we just give up and bail, or do we fit what we can and come anyway? I can see pros and cons to both answers.

[Analiese Aubernet]

Though, that brings up a question - what if, during a reship, everything needed for a fit isn't available? Do we just give up and bail, or do we fit what we can and come anyway? I can see pros and cons to both answers.

I'd suggest staging reships in common systems - it makes reshipping easier and quicker.

[Auresh Odunen]

I'd suggest staging reships in common systems - it makes reshipping easier and quicker.

I agree that would be ideal, but it doesn't really answer my question.

[Budda Sereda]

I'm going to stock reship contracts in Ichoriya so that is not a problem. Will see how successful that will be.

But, if nothing on contract, I would fit whatever I can find. And usually, there are meta modules available. Let me know which modules you were lacking I will consider getting a dozen of them for sell. Hope that all won't be bought by non-unistas.

[Auresh Odunen]

Let me know which modules you were lacking

No, it was fine - I had to bounce around between 3 different stations, but I found everything. I just forgot to fit the last piece before we resumed the roam.

I was mainly asking in case it was a problem in the future, since I could see it happening at some point.

[Raido Kudonen]

I was told, RS with active armor reppers. It started repping later, once it took few of us... I guess, it still had shield reppers because having armor RS would be very stupid and that pilot does fly it really often, and have any RS lost with armor tank.

So, uh, you got baited by Jimmy217.

This is a case where knowing Black Rise a little bit better is very helpful. Jimmy217 is a former Waffle (he left/got purged because he preferred to stick with a small gang/solo playstyle when Waffles moved towards heavier fleet concepts with a greater emphasis on numbers) and a very skilled "solo" PvPer with a number of multiboxed alts. When we're in Black Rise, we typically don't engage him without a couple of cards up our sleeve. He often uses creative, somewhat off-meta fits that are in practice very strong.

The fit that Breeze posted is very typical of this. Note that Guristas ships (like Balanced Legion ships) have a damage bonus to "missiles" - in the Guristas' case thermal/kinetic missiles - and therefore are entirely usable with undersized launchers. So your first mistake is assuming that the Snake's rapid launchers are shooting heavy missiles and therefore "apply poorly" - he was most likely using rapid light missiles, with a scram and web, which means the missiles will apply full damage to a typical shield AF (if he had a grappler instead of the second omni link, he'd likely apply full damage with Fury missiles). The active armor reps also allow for dual prop, a cap injector, two tackle mods, AND a pair of omni links (which will make his Gecko track tackled frigates pretty well) - sure, he doesn't benefit from his shield resist bonus, but he'd have to make significant tradeoffs to run a good shield tank, and the active armor reps provide for a very potent sort of bait tanking against a frigate gang.

A couple other brief points: Ishkurs are utterly awful and should just never be flown; in fleet settings, the only good "shield assault frigates" are the Harpy and the Jaguar, and really the Jaguar isn't great. Also, what in the name of Bob is that Vagabond fit - t1 guns, a buffer tank, and one empty rig slot. Yikes.

[BatFC]

Well, I was the 2IC who called scatter. We seemed to breaking that RS's tank, he was nearing 1/4 atmor. Then the RS started armor repping and we lost 2 frigates in quick succession, it was clear we were not going to break his reps at that point.

[Baelthorn]

Though, that brings up a question - what if, during a reship, everything needed for a fit isn't available? Do we just give up and bail, or do we fit what we can and come anyway? I can see pros and cons to both answers.

I'd suggest staging reships in common systems - it makes reshipping easier and quicker.

Having at least one reshipping point with contracts in each region would be very beneficial... it doesnt have to be more than 5 of each blap doctrine and a few newbro tackles.