[NSC] Poking the water

[Budda Sereda]

Yesterday, I logged in and K950 reported some activities around PC9. After 5-10 minutes discussion between us and Skurf I made a ping and we got around 5-6 different kitchen sink ships: few Vexors, Cynabal, Malediction, etc.

First, we moved to the back pocket as somebody reported Atron and 'something else, don't remember exactly what'. We got a fleet in X-P on ZN0 gate while K950 and Skurff in Cynabal jumped to ZN0. Dunno why we did not get the whole fleet, but K950 got a solo kill
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818089/ https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818095/ 600k in total

Afterward, we extracted ice collected in AK-, saw a SB decloaked once nevertheless to whole bunch of us sitting on the grid at the warp-in range. We were able to land a few shots on his, but he warped off.

Later we got 1 or 2 more pilots (who have done with mining) and decided to go into outer space. While we formed up in PC9 we saw quite a big fleet going from JH- through PC9 into X-P and further down to the pocket. The fleet was much bigger than us. Don't remember exact fleet composition, that were some T1 and navy cruisers, dictor (Malediction). In total around 8-10 ships.

Now I think we had other option, but yesterday I decided to try kiting those guys in caracals and see what we can do. In my scenario worst case what we could lose is some ammo only. So we formed up in PC9 50km from gate to X-P (6 Caracals + K950's maledicion), I called myself to be an anchor and asked fleet to orbit myself at 500m.
Unpleasant thing was that it was a neutral in PC9 from the same corp as that fleet, but he was cloaked and we could not do much.

K950 bubbled the gate, and less than in few minutes those guys jumped out. First was probably Augoror, he took a bit of damage and jumped back. Next was malediction, I called it a primary and we first put some damage, but later the rest of their fleet jumped through and started repping it.

It was clear to me we can't break opponents logies. So I switched primary to opponent's Oneiros. Honestly, at that time I did not see another logy and assumed it is only Oneiros and we should be able to put it down.
At this time I realized that fleet does not orbit me, not even close: people were spread out around in 5-10 km. I called orbit myself at 500m again and asked to turn on prop mods.

We were shooting Oneiros, he was started taking damage, ... but we could not break it. He was either solo-tanking 4-6 Caracals (which is probably next to impossible) or had another logy which I could not find out. In any case, I decided to disengage and commanded to scatter. And later K950 reported it was Execuror on grid (who was most likely was reponsible for keeping Oneiros alive).

I could try breaking Execuror and see if Oneiros can keep him alive, but opponents were too close to us so I called scatter.
But... I guess it was too late: 5 of us were pointed and killed:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818577/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818585/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818594/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818599/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818608/
https://zkillboard.com/kill/60818628/ (pod)

Good:
1. We did form-up, and relatively quickly.
2. We had a very informative after-action analysis and practicing on anchoring and kiting.
3. We were not bubbled and saved pod (though I expect them to be empty)

Can be better:
1. Ensure fleet understand what is expected and does follow commands
2. Train in advance if needed
3. Disengage earlier when tank can't be broken or range gets too small
4. Fleet did not report they were pointed, we would had probably disengaged earlier

Learned:
1. It is really hard to keep fleet at range to opponents (even during training we never were able to stay out of scrum range)
2. Hunters have much easier job than anchor
3. Hunters are hard to kill if supported by logies
4. Good safety net to stay out of scrum range is command destroyer who can activate MJDG: this can pull fleet out even if opponent's tackle come as close as 12-14km.

Things for thoughts:
1. Bubbling the gate has limited value, unless you kill the target in 2-4 seconds (essentially you need to alpha it) opponents can either jump back or align to celestial and warp off. Maybe I'm missing the point? Maybe we should not even waste time on this?
2. What could be a better option for us considering we instead of having 6-7 caracals we could have 3-4 caracals AND Drake (myself) + Proteus (Skurf) + VNI/Vexor (don't remember who, but somebody did report he can bring it). We would have MUCH higher DPS and by hiding Proteus we could make a surprise. With this we DID have real chances to break 1 T1 CR logy, later 2nd, and take few more ships.

Please leave your comments guys!

[Rezda Nardieu]

Kiting takes practice, both to FC and to be in a fleet with.

The issue with RLML Caracals is that they do much better in bigger numbers. You really want to alpha things off the field before reps can land rather than try to break a T2 Logi cruiser. An Oneirous can have up to about 60k EHP with 80% resists. Even if there were no other logi on field it would take 6 Caracals over a minute to break him, one other logi (even something spider tanking) and you would never break it.

1. Bubbling the gate has limited value, unless you kill the target in 2-4 seconds (essentially you need to alpha it) opponents can either jump back or align to celestial and warp off. Maybe I'm missing the point? Maybe we should not even waste time on this?

Not at all. Bubbling a gate is extremely useful if you do it correctly.

2-4 seconds is plenty of time for most ships to burn to, lock and point/scram/web most other ships.

Also if ships are trying to burn out of bubbles, the interdictor should be burning at them and dropping another bubble.

You can bubble both sides of a gate fairly easily as launching a bubble does not cause a weapon timer.

[Glasi Vookto]

You obviously failed to implement the whole concept of kiting in that fight But don't take it too hard, it's not something very easy to pull, especially in the Uni. To help, I'll try to walk you step by step through how you should approach an engagement like that. So here it goes:

You are sitting 50km from the gate in RLML Caracals. When the enemy jumps into you, you start passive aligning out and wait to see what they do. Pro tip here: think a bit before going for the first ship they uncloak. If they're smart, that will be a brick tank, and remember, Caracals have limited charges, you want to make them matter.
Now if their tackle starts burning at you, you start burning away hard (maybe even heat a couple of cycles) and primary their tackle. Most cases they will get too far away from their logi/buddies and even if they manage to land a scram they'll just melt under RLML dps. Keep going through their tacklers until they're all dead or off field.
Once all their fast tackle is gone and you are safely positioned on grid, you can get back in range to start applying to their main ships/logi. That is, ofc, provided your inty pilots did what they should and kept point on some of their slower shiny stuff. Depending on how many shots you fired, you may take this time to reload.
Now, depending on your numbers, you have two options. If you think you have enough dps/alpha to punch through reps on some of their squishier ships (probably not your case in that fight), you can start calling those. Otherwise, your best bet is to work on their logi hoping you can break them in one clip.
Either way, barring piloting error you should be relatively safe now as their tackle is gone. If they still have some tacklers left, be ready to immediately switch to them when they come close. Rule number one in kiting is to not get scrammed, so don't let anything get close enough to you. If you see there's nothing else you can kill there, just disengage. Better to go away with just a few frig kills than to risk and lose your whole fleet.

Now go out there and blot the sun with light missiles and get that much needed practice!

[Budda Sereda]

I was reviewing my fleets' AARs and found a nice explanation from Glasi on "how to kite", i believe it will be useful for many FC to read/review.

And answering his request:

Now go out there and blot the sun with light missiles and get that much needed practice!

We did it quite the next day: https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=103688
Kudos to all who've been at these fleets