[WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

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Biwako Acami



Post 2020.03.25 23:17

[WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

Members (10)
Biwako Acami (Harbinger)
Sophia Ligeti (Harbinger)
John Echeriedes (Brutix)
Rusting (Brutix)
Klaxis Archimedes (Brutix)
Larkvi (Brutix)
Pink Kondur (Exequror)
Gaelys Aarmenvar (Exequror)
Ito Fonulique (Exequror)
Finzel (Exequror)


Kills and Losses


Oh boy, where do I start. A few of our members got caught ratting in Bacon (not included in this AAR.) I was about to leave to sleep but turns out it was our old friends Urban Oxide and Troven Smalvard visiting WHC for the first time after they left. I went to get eyes on my alt and found the fleet in Bacon. I found their entrance to Bacon and then headed back as they had jumped into Innuendo.

We tried to form up for the fight. We started off with too few. I was asked to form Heavy Armor but I didn't feel like taking that out as I felt that EPSYN would have options to escalate and were too low on numbers at the time. We formed Light Armor, I asked for 3 logi pilots and then undocked once we sorted out meta fits for a newcomer (Thanks Larkvi). I was sure that we'd whelp and shared what I thought with the fleet.

While we were undocking, I was trying to get a warp in for .bacon with my alt. My objective was to land at 0 on the hole. While we were undocked I didn't see a bubble go up so I warped directly to the hole instead of using my alt as the warpin. When I alt tab back I see a bubble went up. This wasn't particularly bad as we were 50km off from the hole and logi was safe behind us.

I started burning out of the bubble and angled to .bacon. We primaried the Griffin and managed to take it down even though he was slightly out of range for the Brutix. I was hoping to get the fleet out of the bubbles. Initially I wanted to burn out of the bubbles to warp to my alt as a ping. The Malediction was tackling our Exeqs and we forced him off on a couple of occasions. The Heretic and Malediction were teasingly close enough for scram/web and so I tried to get the fleet to shoot down the tackle, swaying away from the hole. I was calling targets late as the they would often drift out before anyone could get them tackled. We managed to shoot down one heretic and came close to taking down the Malediction and second Heretic. It looked like Logi was holding. I failed to call jam targets for the Brutix's.

At some point one of our Exequrors got caught next to the enemy fleet They were able to get in range to web and take down the Exeq. After that point the enemy DPS was too much for the fleet and we were going down pretty quickly. We never managed to clear the bubbles on grid. The fourth Exequror landed late to the fight and was caught within the bubbles.

It felt like one bad call after another. And now to bed.

Edit: Special thanks to Troven for providing ship replacement for a newbro in the fleet.

ISK Destroyed: 101,855,844.13
ISK Lost: 749,862,080.97
ISK Delta: -648,006,236.84‬‬
Efficiency: 12%

Overall evaluation
  • Positives
    • We took the fight
  • What could improve
    • Should have burned in regardless considering the number of Brutixs on field
    • Need to call ECM targets for the LA doctrine
    • Should have kept eye on logi and checked to see if they were safe on occasion
    • Flying the Harbinger I took for granted the range I had over the Brutix for targets I was calling
    • Should have used my alt for the warp in.
    • Think positive going into the fight
    • I should choose sleep over whelps, although would probably do it again if old friends show up
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Tori Moliko



Post 2020.03.26 00:08

Re: [WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

On the ECM target calling: In this doctrine, the Brutix pilots should be bouncing the ECM around from target to target after each cycle or two. The FC need not call specific ECM targets. It's nice to see Urban and Troven's names pop up in Innuendo again.
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Gergoran Moussou



Post 2020.03.26 07:55

Re: [WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

Don't worry too much about whelping. Any good FC became good by repeatedly doing that. Whelping can be a learning experience. Almost all of the K-Space fleets which I lead with E-Uni were whelps to some degree. What you need to be concerned with is feeding.

Here's an article written by Mukk Barovian of Pandemic Legion, one of the greatest fleet commanders ever to play the game. His alliance, Pandemic Legion, had recently invaded and defeated a much larger, new player-focused alliance, Brave Newbies (and their allies, the HERO Coalition, though they were the majority of the alliance), in a war and he wrote three articles about the lessons could be learned from the war. The whole series is worth reading, though the site which hosts them has formatting issues which make them difficult to read. The first article explains the difference between whelping and feeding, why whelping isn't always a problem, and what the problems are with feeding. The second article is almost completely irrelevant to E-Uni since long-distance capital movements aren't the most common E-Uni operations. The third article is about the leadership issues that Brave Newbies had at the time (while I've had some criticism of how E-Uni leadership works as a former E-Uni fleet commander and junior staff in various departments, I never saw it approach the leadership collapse brought on by the bureaucratic CF that they had at the time).

In the case of E-Uni, the question of a feeding culture can be assessed by whether or not "this is a training corp" gets thrown around as an excuse for whelps which could have been avoided or as a way of telling people off when they try to provide suggestions for how something can be improved in the future. While this BR is definitely a whelp, it doesn't look like it was necessarily a feed. Whether or not it's a feed depends on how the people involve react.

A few tips:

1. Heavy armor would be the appropriate doctrine for faction battlecruisers and HACs. If the FC isn't comfortable risking heavy armor, I would recommend a nano comp which can haze them, possibly get a few kills on squishier stuff (in this case, I'd start with the Keres and then the Ashimmu) before they left while avoiding getting tackled and torn apart. However, falling back on a nano comp shouldn't be done too much because if there's nobody willing to risk heavy armor when it's necessary out of fear of feeding it, the resulting fight may turn into an actual feed. I wouldn't be too worried about options to escalate, though: with Urban and Troven there, I wouldn't expect them to escalate too far. There was an incident a few months ago when the corp which I was part of at the time fought WHC and might have overescalated a bit, but had I been present for it (I did not have a functioning computer at the time), they wouldn't have overescalated because that escalation mainly happened due to the corp members who were present for the fight not knowing what WHC's numbers and capabilities were and escalating as a precaution (and also escalating because Drekavacs were our standard doctrine).

2. You were facing mainly drone ships. I would prioritize smartbomb Harbinger over links Brutix in forming up against drone ships other than a Gila comp (Gilas' drones can tank smartbombs well).

3. Harbingers have a range advantage over Brutices but because of how short blasters' range is, the Brutix pilots should be handling that themselves to stay close. In my experience, this doctrine works best when the individual pilots are flying their own ships rather than anchoring, trying to keep in the optimal range of their weapons.

4. ECM target-calling shouldn't be necessary. When armor doctrines have EWAR mids (the most common other option for the utility mids being a tracking computer), the target-caller typically specifies targets, but doesn't go into detail (for example, I frequently fly in Zealot fleets, the opposing fleets usually include at least one artillery fleet of Muninns or Machariels, so the FC instructions are generally to spread our tracking disruptors onto the Muninn/Machariel fleet while shooting at the targets which he calls, rather than specific targets to disrupt). In the case of a smaller J-Space fleet, I would delegate this further, expecting people to EWAR appropriately without me having to specify targets at all. I'm not quit sure that unbonused ECM mids work better than a tracking disruptor (or target painter, what it was previously as support for the LA Talos), but Tori explained how it's supposed to work. I'd give a reminder at the beginning and then trust pilots to handle it themselves.

5. I like that you were asked to form heavy armor rather than form SS/LA and escalate from there as needed. At times, WHC hasn't always handled it this way.

Points 3 and 4 together are that you shouldn't worry about micromanaging your pilots.

Troven Smalvard



Post 2020.03.26 08:18

Re: [WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

my garbled mind dump, haven't had the joy of the overlong ramble AAR in a while :D

First off props for taking the fight, especially as you had lower numbers to start, and sorting refits etc to get everyone involved
It was first time we'd connected since leaving campus so was super happy to see it busy.

for my recollection there are a few brutix's missing form the BR that got away that aren't shown, was actually a touch and go a little that we thought you'd just stomp us when the full fleet got undocked, some quick Urban brain math had it at 9-10k dps which would have applied and punched through the drekavaks quick sweet if you've been on zero

I bagsied FC as it was you guys, and had set the gank
was super rusty as don't really FC in EPSYN but bit of excitement and pride kept me on field

we did shout for a couple of extra ishtars when saw the numbers coming and was just hoping to try and hold the grid for long enough.

Actual fight:

For me you picked the right comp to bring with the numbers you had.
(We'd have had to go and change up if you'd have brought the HA as we wouldn't have been able to break anything)

All tackle was an alts, and as relay of numbers came through one of ours threw up the defence bubble at very last min just in time so much so i late (as i had to be prompted :oops: ) wouldn't have been surprised if your guys got split if it wasn't a fleet warp

plan was to try and pick off a couple as you burned into us with option to jump if we were overwhelmed.

(small issue for us number one - i think only one of our istars could drop sentries and so had travel time for damage on all others)

as you landed tried and tested tank on a harbi and a couple of brutix's but your logi were holding fine(ish) just seemed a little slow to start catching but once focused were holding.
so tried some switching, but ramp on drek and travel on drones meant your guys did a sterling job keeping peeps up.

as you noted one of the exeq's got out of position/too close and we could get webs and tackle on and was in med range for dreks so we managed to pop him, then we had just enough dps to punch through the remaining 2 logi - Pink got there just too late to keep the main dps up and you'd lost mass by then and were extracting, right thing also

would could have gone different your side:

already Tori mentioned, should be using those jams to reset the ramps on the trig ships especially as they are the ones projecting best from the mid range.
just keep reminding them to bounce them around a target type

I'm pretty sure you were never in range to jam the rodiva, so only ecm drones may have helped you there, but damage incoming wasn't really a big enough issue
you never really got close to the brutix optimals, even for null, you didn't have the option to bounce and reposition once landed as were bubbles galore, however we were not breaking you to start and if you have had just burned straight in keeping the logi behind you screened ( as you were forced commit at that point anyway ) you would have made it in i believe, and then at that range you can prob smash through a drek or even 2 before losing anything and would have massively turned the tables.

was so much worried on that that we were putting ecm drones on brutixes to start and not the logi to try and reduce dps rather than your reps

all above easier to say in hindsight knowing our comp strength and weakness
and i know how effective the LA comp can be,

also give out jobs when theres multiple facets. give someone task to remind on ewar targets separate to main dps
again i lucky had couple of FC's in fleet calling out secondary priorities and helping spot out of position ships ( my logi target tabs broke down as you were not in T2 logi :oops: )
also often see fly now with multi anchors, and a separate target caller so can concentrate on one thing at once,
again i know this is starting to be a lot of roles to give to corp with lot newer members but all complement each other without overall responsibility of being FC so could be good for learning

good job clearing tackle and small stuff when it started going south and getting some out.

also its so much harder that you think to not headshot Biwako first :lol: he got broadcast a few times for me to have to quickly back track in coms :lol:
honestly was trying to kill your ranged stuff first promise thats my excuse and sticking with it.

GF uni, hopefully you catch us first next time ....

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Pink Kondur


Reimbursement Manager
Reimbursement Manager

Post 2020.03.26 09:56

Re: [WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

Tori Moliko wrote:On the ECM target calling: In this doctrine, the Brutix pilots should be bouncing the ECM around from target to target after each cycle or two. The FC need not call specific ECM targets. It's nice to see Urban and Troven's names pop up in Innuendo again.

Yes and no, since they have radar ECM by default, they should focus trig ships or amarr ships first (ample targets in this fight). Since ishtar drones can attack anyone that shoots them when set to agressive, i'd prioritize the dreks (even more so since RR dreks are common). I'd say, for LA brutix jams, you can never go wrong jamming a drekavac, possible switching to another when you get a succesful jam. The only exception i see here is when hostile logi are on field and our DPS is not breaking any of them.

Also @Biwako, i only came online when the fight was already ongoing and i heard a 'we're not holding anymore' which is why i promptly jumped into an exeq. I don't think i have contributed much, except for some reps to targets that were already dying, but i like to think someone else got out because of that. 10/10 would come out again, and i hope i can fight some old WHC dudes for a full fight sometime :)

Tori Moliko



Post 2020.03.26 18:56

Re: [WHC] Where I whelped a fleet

That ECM priority makes sense; I just meant to say that selecting targets for and bouncing the ECM is the Brutix pilots’ responsibility, not something that Biwako should feel was a negative in his FC’ing.
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