AAR QRF 07 December 2019 Amygnon

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Cutecumber Roll

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Post 2019.12.07 02:49

AAR QRF 07 December 2019 Amygnon

Roam members (20)
SPOILER WARNING!
Batto Ashitaka - Ishkur
Capt Steele - Falcon
Ellery Smith - Atron
Enforcer7
Eongus Odunen - Cormorant
Flatline Kasenumi - Merlin
Gaelys Aarmenvar - Slasher, Vexor
Golan Aldent
Harrison Riggs - Condor
KPYTOE KOPOBO - Vexor
Larkvi - Catalyst
Metti ar Virksen
Rimbol C'hen'stalaz
Rogue Ozran - Imperial Navy Slicer, Ashimmu
Triton Aster
Tungon Akeela - Vexor
Valeria Rammstein - Vexor
Vybez Kartel - Typhoon
Yto Itinen - Augoror
lobevaser - Naga


Kills and Losses

(00:16:32) Amygnon
Slasher -1.45m
Atron -0.51m
Merlin -1.16m
Ishkur -97.17m
Imperial Navy Slicer -16.45m

(00:53:46) Amygnon
Condor -1.15m
Atron -0.51m
Capsule -0.03m
Catalyst -1.99m
Capsule -0.68m
Merlin -1.38m
Omen Navy Issue +71.22m
Zarmazd +1028.41m

(01:23:08) Amygnon
Naga -100.59m

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 1,099,625,732.52
ISK Lost: 223,067,550.18
ISK Delta: 876,558,182.34
Efficiency: 83.135%

The numbers don't really give the whole story on this fleet; this fleet just felt incredibly disorganised and from my perspective at least the kills we got didn't feel like a huge victory. We managed to pull together to get some good kills but it was kind of an exhausting fight. We had a lot of newbros and fleet cohesion as a whole was quite bad.

Special shoutout to my unofficial LC Yto Itinen for keeping my logi together and as organised as could possibly be expected.
Last edited by Cutecumber Roll on 2019.12.09 04:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Tal Tracyn

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Post 2019.12.07 13:46

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

A problem i often see in QRF's is the lack of tackle or heavy tackle and its quite evident here with the loss of a lot of brave tackle frigs.
I'll work on some cheap heavy tackle docs.
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Ky Hanomaa

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Post 2019.12.07 14:34

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

Tal Tracyn wrote:A problem i often see in QRF's is the lack of tackle or heavy tackle and its quite evident here with the loss of a lot of brave tackle frigs.
I'll work on some cheap heavy tackle docs.


Problem with tackling in situations like these is more about the individual pilot knowledge.

Knowing the strengths of their ship and the ships they're trying to tackle -> should I orbit close or stay out of scram-range? Will I need a scram or a web (in the case of the Phantasm it's webs) on that thing? Can I just click-approach or will I have to spiral in? The "when" as in: Is back-up ready to come to my aid or will I just die for nothing? Weapons timers on gates/stations need to be considered as well.

Spiraling, scram-passing and manual piloting skills in general will pay off greatly. I will try to hold more classes once I'm finished with all my exams.
Former Assistant FCC Manager


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Yto Itinen

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Post 2019.12.07 15:17

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

First of all, thanks to all who responded and took part in the QRF! In my book, each loss we inflict on WTs makes them less eager to come and look for cheap kills, so they either will leave us alone or commit to good fights. The fact that we can always improve does not mean there were no positives.

POSITIVES vs POSSIBLE IMPROVEMENTS

-Cutecumber calls for frigates doctrines when dealing with kitey ships, giving us more chances to land tackle, which is a solid reasoning.
Cit 101 had zero armor frigates, be it logi or punishers, which forced some to either use their own stock or to go kitchen sink. It feels bad to play the ping/tactical game well and land tackle, only to see the Phantasm run away (because no web punisher is lame :( We need some more contracts for logi/mainline/tackle armor frigs at 101, and a handful of fednavy comets, personally don't mind Jita prices.

-We formed up quickly and managed to fill the logi minimums. Ergan Eto has always been a reliable jack of all trades and he can take care of almost any role. Batto Ashitaka has been doing a great job as a logi in all the fleets he has been in. Props for newbro Triton for picking a logi role.
Being on the logi squad or x-ing up in fleet is a requirement for logi pilots, especially in cap chain situations. This being a QRF, we had to be in HSC main comms, and no logi channel means Logi Fc has to take some time from combat comms to sort things out and I'm sorry if I sometimes speak over Fc.

-The up-ship into cruisers was very fast, and we fielded a big fleet in no time.
The problem was that we had an FC and other ships fitted with MWD chasing kitey stuff, while logi and most fleet were AB fit. This almost jeopardized the fleet, as we were strung out many times. The fact that FC was careful and treaded well between logi optimal and fallof is a testament of both good Fc-ing and good piloting skills, but having him lead the charge was dangerous and we had to rep him from hull many times. We solved the problem by reshipping logi with mwd and smaller plates I had in hangar, but it's a duct tape solution, we need better options.

-A paradox we face when fielding these fleets is that tackle requires less SP but a lot of good piloting, while DD and logi require more SP, but can be covered by relatively junior pilots. Last night, almost half of the senior pilots had to cover logi/support roles, which meant we prevented more losses, but on the other hand we lacked expert tackle to go against our opponents, meaning Cutecumber had to be both tackle and FC at the head of the fleet. We need more tackle classes and basic training for combat pilots.

Until next time, fly fun!
Yto Itinen
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Cutecumber Roll

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Post 2019.12.08 02:46

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

"The fact that FC was careful and treaded well between logi optimal and fallof is a testament of both good Fc-ing and good piloting skills, but having him lead the charge was dangerous and we had to rep him from hull many times."

I appreciate the praise here. I just think it's important to say that you deserve a lot of the credit here as well; you tried to apoligise for occasionally needing to speak over me but you were doing an amazing job keeping me aware of the situation in regards to logi falloff and you were doing an amazing job moving the logi squad where they needed to be. I gave you a bit of a shout out in the original AAR but it seems prudent to expound upon that here; without a competent LC stepping up the way you did my job would have been tremendously harder and it is unlikely this fleet would have turned out so positively.
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Batto Ashitaka

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Post 2019.12.08 07:49

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

I think my death as a tackle Ishkur could have been avoided. Once I got scram and web on the WT and called it on com I haerd some people calling secondary. They however also quickly popped and I became primary. I tried to hold as much as I could (First time flying both the Ishkur and I don't have a lot of experience as tackle) But I died before the fleet could really engage the target and hold him down.

In retrospect I should have bounced. I was too focused in pinning down the target that I lacked situational awareness. I definitely need more practical experience in tackling.

A suggestion I have, I'm not sure if it was possible with the fleet we had but : a vanguard squad ready to warp-in on tackler as soon as point called.
I understand the fleet was on grid with us but it took too long for the fleet to come to us with the target so a squad of people not chasing the target but staying at warpable distance would have prevented the loss of so many tacklers and keep the target pinned down.

Once dead I reshipped in a more familiar role to me : Logi.

We were very very efficient in holding people alive thanks for Yto. He was a great Logi FC/anchor who was able to call the right orders on time.
As Yto said : The current Augoror fit has a massive problem in that it is AB fitted while the DD were mwd fitted. This is what created the real focus point for both FC and LC to be able to keep the fleet alive as we couldn't follow them fast enough. While we were eventually succesful in that engagement, I'm sure it would facilitate the FC job to have logi keeping up with the fleet when chasing a target.
I noticed the same problem for the Blap merlin doctrine with the logi burst having a hard time catching up to merlins.

After a first engagement we were able to change the fit a bit to be more speedy. as I'm by no mean an expert in fitting I'm not sure if this fit is the optimal mwd to the blap aug but at least it did the job.

As a final note. we had a lots of newbros pilots, for some it was even the first pvp experience. I'm happy to see people aren't afraid to join QRF and learn on the fly in stressful situation and I'll be happy to see you in our scheduled fleet o/
Special cheers to Triton, it's nice seeing newbro flying logi. Being able to field enough logi is really great, we now need more tackler.
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Gaelys Aarmenvar

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Post 2019.12.08 15:11

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

First, thanks to everyone. Even if there was room for improvement, given the situation and the high number of newbros (including myself), it could have finished in a massacre and it didn't :)

I would love to see more classes on tackle and piloting. This was my first flight as a tackle, and I had mostly no idea on what to do, and was the first to die certainly because of that. But hey, everytime I die I learn a bit more, so that's fine :D
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Cutecumber Roll

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Post 2019.12.09 02:36

Re: AAR QRF 12 December 2019 Amygnon

"A suggestion I have, I'm not sure if it was possible with the fleet we had but : a vanguard squad ready to warp-in on tackler as soon as point called.
I understand the fleet was on grid with us but it took too long for the fleet to come to us with the target so a squad of people not chasing the target but staying at warpable distance would have prevented the loss of so many tacklers and keep the target pinned down."

The funny thing is that we did have 4 people greater than 150km away and already aligned in the correct direction when we got the phantasm pinned down. When that moment happened I called for everyone in the back to warp up to the front and none of them did. That moment was actually the most frustrated I got at any point in the fleet because it just really demonstrated a lack of spacial awareness in a lot of people.

I try to be understanding with newbros and we certainly had a lot of them that fleet, but when we were grabbing tackle I was honestly expecting 4 friendlies from the back to instantly warp up to us and join in and instead they were likely all fiddling with their fleet window tring to find the warp in I called for.

I don't want this to seem like an indictment of any individual pilot or pilots; it is just a reminder that strategies like this only work if each individual pilot is maintaining situational awareness and flying well. That takes practice but practice is exactly what fleets like this provide new pilots.

Like everyone else I learned (and am still constantly learning) how to play this game by f***ing up many, many times. Fleets like this, where everything is constantly terrible and everyone is making mistakes, but somehow nobody ever messes up so bad that everything goes down the toilet all at once, have always seemed like the best learning experiences for me, and I hope others learned a lot from this experience as well.
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