AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

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Lightsong the Bold

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Post 2019.07.07 03:01

AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 6&t=113570

We left Amygnon at 22:20 with 3 dragoons, 5 algos, 1 vigil, 3 bantams, 1 griffin, 5 punishers, and 1 maulus.

Full speed ahead to tama.

We passed a few neutrals in the first few systems. our ships are totally unequipped to handle gate guns so we ignore them.

Passing through a triglavian invasion system we encounter a triglavian gate-camp on our out-gate and jump on contact. one member of fleet ends up in structure but we make it through otherwise unscathed.

We do a bit of searching in Fliet. We spot an ashimu and a tristan but they are at range outside of a plex and our tackle is too far away. A few other ships appear briefly on scan but soon it seems that everything docked or cloaked. There is talk in local chat about not wanting to fight us so we press on.

Once we reach tama our scout reports jaguar, hurricane, prophecy, cormorant, heron and combat probes on dscan from the in gate so we jump in and warp to a celestial as we assess what is in system with us. Scout keeps eyes on a prophecy outside the medium complex as we try to determine who is combat scanning.

our scout reports a gang of cynabals with hurricane support. We locate them at a station and warp the fleet at range. Combat probes are at 1 Au so we immediately send the fast punisher away and prepare to jump. The hurricanes warp out and back on top of us and we perform a beautiful meme worthy pseudo boosh 39:10 leaving our drones behind right on top of them. unfortunately our punisher moved to far so our warp took us out of our range.

We play for about 10 minutes with the cynabals warping around the station. We trade evenly with the cynabal gang (by trade evenly i mean that neither group gets any kills). Many drones were unintentionally abandoned but we warp back near them to reconnect before disengaging and manage to pick up the vast majority.

A smartbombing Proteus has been the one scanning us. we jump a few times and he lands on us each time, aligns out, decloaks, smartbombs once, and warps. This is the second time in fleet that i warp myself instead of fleetwarping. The proteus warps off again before anyone can get tackle, we scatter, and we dockup to repair at space detroit.

we lose one algos to real life aggro. Somehow this is the first loss of the fleet.

We warp into the large at 50 and chill for a bit. Our "booshing" wont work in a plex so we are abandoning our strategy, but without a clear strategy to deal with the proteus it is a nice place to engage possibly easy targets. a few things warp to us but nothing slow enough for our tackle to catch, even when they do warp somewhat close to us. tackle spread out a bit to cover the main warp in spots, and drop tritanium around the beacon to decloak the proteus if it joins us.

We give up on the Large and jump to a small where there may be a few things outside. a comet manages to slide gate before we can tackle and an atron is too fast for our punishers and warps off.

I warp everyone to a random celestial and tell everyone to orbit me at 10k, drop tritanium, and drop drones. i am hoping that our cloaky proteus friend will still be interested since combat probes are still out.

As we are doing this we are invited to join a group in the medium. kikimora, 3 comets, daredevil, and a few other things.

We lose all of our tackle to the kikimora. Everything keeps moving in and out of our drone range so it is difficult to focus targets. A few pilots reship locally with whatever is available. This results in our most valuable loss, a 7.2 mil catalyst.

An enemy atron goes down to two pilots while it is not pointed and also outside of everyone's targeting range. Great excitement ensues; we are winning.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667531/ - this was our only kill.

Eventually everything warps off and we hold the field briefly. We grab about 10 million isk of loot from drops and abandoned drones.

After a fed navy comet joins us which we have no chance of shooting much less holding, i decide to call it and we dock to wait out our suspect timers so we can travel home in high sec.

Losses:
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77666941/ - 3.1 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77666955/ - 0
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667333/ - 3.4 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667442/ - 3.2 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667443/ - 2.1 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667447/ - 0
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667456/ - 2.1 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667469/ - 2.2 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667511/ - 7.2 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667520/ - 3.5 mil
https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667532/ - 1 mil

Total - 25.7 mil

Kills:

https://zkillboard.com/kill/77667531/ - 15.7

Kills plus loot - 25.7mil

Overall this fleet was isk neutral and i couldn't be bothered to add significant figures to my calculation to see if we were actually slightly in the green. If you count insurance, we should be isk positive.

Everyone was amazed we managed to stand off against the cynabals without losses and we spent a solid 30 minutes of the total fleet time engaged in some form of fleet combat. Even if the combat we were engaged in was bizarre and often frustrating we had a lot of excitement and fleet morale seemed generally to be reasonably high.

https://imgur.com/a/oZED5MN - Our hard earned kill mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_uEwCN ... e=youtu.be - Full recorded fleet courtesy of Tristlle Boirelle

I do not recommend ever flying this doctrine. These destroyers are unwieldy and even though they were fun to fly, i would never want to fly anything like them again.
Last edited by Lightsong the Bold on 2019.07.19 21:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Gergoran Moussou

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Post 2019.07.07 06:23

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

Yeah, sorry about being a lemming and accidentally warping to the broadcasted location.

I like experimentation. If I thought I could float the upfront cost, I'd come up with some crazy idea and pass out ships. I didn't expect it to work and knowing that Tama would probably eat us all, I had a good time. Despite focusing on Amarr ships, I had never actually flown a Punisher before (the two mid-slots deterred me from solo PVP with it because I couldn't fit prop, scram, and web, I did the initial PVE prior to moving up to the destroyer that I flew when I joined E-Uni in a Tormentor).

There's no denying that your idea was weird. Experimenting with weird ideas is fun. I would suggest trying to make it easier to it. Like I have pretty good fitting skills and there was no way to fit the Dragoon with both Drone Link Augmentors online. Even after offlining the turret, I couldn't do it. I think CPU was the issue. And because Amoni mentioned that everyone kept losing drones after I lemminged and mostly stopped paying attention to comms, my thoughts for improvement would be that this might work better as a cruiser doctrine with the long-range weapons being HML Caracals. Or battlecruiser doctrine with Feroces (I'm pretty sure that this would be the currect plural) because it would be easier to fit those and they don't become useless if they lose their drones.

I would say that drones are my least favorite primary weapon in PVP because players are smart enough to target the drones and rob you of your damage, but I'm trying to figure out a Dragoon doctrine as well and I like it more than any other T1 destroyer besides the Coercer (then again, this is probably because with Amarr Destroyer V and the ability to run T2 everything on them besides drones, I can fly these ships better than any other destroyer besides my Confessors). Probably something fairly mundane and not as out-there, though (rockets on some ships, autocannons on other ships, to engage at short range and neut people without having to worry about cap for the ship's weapons, the main idea).
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Mike Kingswell

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Post 2019.07.07 09:50

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

Quick sidenote: I shall send you an EVEMAIl with a link to the "Roam Report Maker". A nice tool into which you copy the fleet chat and it creates a forum template with kills, losses and isk-count and all that most of us use.
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Amoni Panala

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Post 2019.07.08 05:34

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

I don't know what the Dragoon's were fitted with, but I understood the logic of the Algos fit to a point. I didn't understand why bother putting guns on it when anything with an even a Civilian Afterburner could kite us out. From what I could tell the concept fits were fine, the issue was that most of us didn't have the skills to trained to fly such a fit properly (i.e. Advanced Drone Avionics). Most of us couldn't get in range of our targets and those of us that did couldn't hit hard enough to actually take out targets.

I found myself really frustrated, mostly because after reconnecting with lost drones the smartbombing cloaky Proteus blew up my drones and I couldn't restock since there were 4-5 flashies camping the station hoping we would come back so they could pop us at range. Without a prop mod I couldn't get close enough to use my guns.

The other thing that was frustrating was that your ship was incredibly fast, meaning that our slowboating destroyers were well beyond the anchor range. The fit either needed a prop mod or the FC would need to reship into something that wasn't going to leave us in the dust. I assume your ship was or close to an instawarp-level align time in order to get the fleet engaged in warp regardless of how slow we were but more often then not it seemed as though we were missing warps because too many of us were lagging behind.

Hindsight being 20/20, we could have used more tackle. I would have flown tackle had I understood the concept of the fleet better (honestly, I just didn't want to fly logi at the time).

Tl;dr - I liked the concept, I just think there were some kinks in the execution. This kind of fleet could work, I think, but it would require a more selective entry based on skills trained.
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Gergoran Moussou

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Post 2019.07.08 06:40

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

Amoni Panala wrote:From what I could tell the concept fits were fine, the issue was that most of us didn't have the skills to trained to fly such a fit properly (i.e. Advanced Drone Avionics). Most of us couldn't get in range of our targets and those of us that did couldn't hit hard enough to actually take out targets.


Tl;dr - I liked the concept, I just think there were some kinks in the execution. This kind of fleet could work, I think, but it would require a more selective entry based on skills trained.


These things really are the big issues with Lightsong's idea. I want to see another iteration of the concept, but doing it with the two drone destroyers doesn't work. I have mostly decent fitting skills (CPU Management IV and currently training to V is the only standout deficiency). Working it out as a cruiser or battlecruiser doctrine would be much more feasible because the larger hulls have more fitting space to work with in terms of module slots, power grid, and CPU. And as I previously stated, the thing that you said in Mumble about losing drones is why I don't think drones should be the long-range weapon of choice for this doctrine. Sure, I can pull longer ranges on my drone ships than I can on any other ship, but tactics which involve frequent warps run the risk of losing drones despite staying on the same grid. I'd rather have my main DPS be in missiles or railguns. In that case, you might lose a couple of light drones, but the bulk of your DPS will still be there. Of the two ships which I have in mind, the Caracal has the shorter time to warp.
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Ithugor Wells

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Post 2019.07.08 07:04

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

Your doctrine was interesting and I was excited to try it.

I do think it has a couple of issues though, which are dramatically lessened with a real boosher.

1) LowSec is a poor location for this as the most common engagement arena (plexes) do not allow warping. Obviously this problem goes away completely with a real boosher.

2) This doctrine really wants people to chase it, which is difficult (but not impossible) to do when no objective is at stake (which is my understanding of why boosh ravens are a thing that is useful).

3) Losing drone control + lock is annoying and painful. I would like confirmation, but if drones kept target after booshing, that could be quite annoying (sic drones, boosh off to safety. Maybe boosh back to choose a new target before leaving again).

4) I'm not sure if it was an issue with the doctrine per se or just an element that is really hard of the doctrine that is hard to use properly, but the nature of our tackle combined with the location of our logi meant it was really hard to keep them alive for long enough to kill something. Maybe it would work better if the tackle committed late? Or if we had very long points.

I wouldn't be surprised if the meta has potential against non-smartbombing fleets, but I suspect it would require a fair amount of expensive ships and high character-skills to pull off correctly.

For your FCing, you did a good job keeping calm. I would suggest that you are more talkative (e.g. repeat commands). Even if just to assure everyone that Everything is Going According to Plan.
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Drachs

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Post 2019.07.08 20:44

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

This idea doesn't seem bad at all to me, it's pretty much exactly how our nullsec fleets used to move back when I played 6 years ago. We'd have several interceptors burning strategic warp points at all times. I think the only thing you're missing is a the covops pilots to create strategic warp back points at the proper range.
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Raido Kudonen

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Post 2019.07.09 22:50

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

Overview:

Lightsong deserves a lot of credit for creativity and for so honestly and clearly recognizing the flaws in this fleet concept. I'm a little surprised, though, that Lightsong was not made aware of these flaws in advance. Nonetheless, recognizing and abandoning a bad idea is not always easy and I think Lightsong did a fantastic job of analyzing what happened and what went a bit wrong.

Ithugor's comments are generally apt. Since I have a fair amount of experience with booshing-based fleet concepts, I'll supplement those comments with some more specific information.

Ithugor Wells wrote:2) This doctrine really wants people to chase it, which is difficult (but not impossible) to do when no objective is at stake (which is my understanding of why boosh ravens are a thing that is useful).


This is correct. Boosh ravens exist because they can move around a structure grid more easily than most plausible hostile fleets, because they have the ability to blap FAXes and therefore trade very efficiently against enemies that have supercap superiority, and because locks (and thus missile travel) are not broken by booshing within one's lock range.

Other than boosh ravens and (in some cases) Stukas, most booshing fleets are designed to grab hostile targets out of a blob, isolate them, and kill them very quickly. Booshing is therefore more often paired with heavy brawling capabilities. More later about why drones are bad for these types of kiting.

Obviously none of these are options for this concept, which is one of the reasons why it is quite silly.

Ithugor Wells wrote:3) Losing drone control + lock is annoying and painful. I would like confirmation, but if drones kept target after booshing, that could be quite annoying (sic drones, boosh off to safety. Maybe boosh back to choose a new target before leaving again).


Drones do keep their target after booshing, although they return to the control ship after the target dies/warps/becomes invulnerable if they're outside drone control range. In general, the limits of drones' control range and travel time make them ill-suited to this kind of kitey gameplay even with actual booshers.

Ithugor Wells wrote:4) I'm not sure if it was an issue with the doctrine per se or just an element that is really hard of the doctrine that is hard to use properly, but the nature of our tackle combined with the location of our logi meant it was really hard to keep them alive for long enough to kill something. Maybe it would work better if the tackle committed late? Or if we had very long points.


This is generally a problem with kiting and projection-based fleets, especially in nullsec. Generally speaking, people have to want to chase you. Very long points help, but of course involve SP and ISK investments beyond the scope of this extremely cheap concept - if you wanted to invest SP and ISK in a fleet like this, you would be using command destroyers.

Ithugor Wells wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if the meta has potential against non-smartbombing fleets, but I suspect it would require a fair amount of expensive ships and high character-skills to pull off correctly.


This is either too tactful or too optimistic - or, possibly, both at once. Kiting is usually not best accomplished with drones. Perma-warping to a fast mover is extremely disruptive to one's own offense, and can only really be viable a) in nullsec/w-space, because of deadspace mechanics, and b) with fast locking and instantly applicable damage, like with Cormorants.

Drachs wrote:This idea doesn't seem bad at all to me, it's pretty much exactly how our nullsec fleets used to move back when I played 6 years ago. We'd have several interceptors burning strategic warp points at all times. I think the only thing you're missing is a the covops pilots to create strategic warp back points at the proper range.


I mean no offense, but this idea is one of many that has become extremely bad in the last few years. While certain kinds of fleets with instant damage application can still do this kind of frequent warping, those fleets are usually very vulnerable. This is because the rise in average SP and knowledge of game mechanics make it very likely that people are using combat probers on grid, while new mechanics (like the micro jump field generator) make it relatively easy for people to pick off windrunners and similar third-party fleet concepts.

As a result, the only nullsec fleets that often operate this way are extremely disposable ones, usually Cormorants and sometimes Jackdaws.
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Rose Alice

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Post 2019.07.17 06:39

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

I'm not going to go over the fleet concept (which looks to be fine except the lack of prop-mod. Catalyst would better personally then actual command destroyers (Magnus if want to keep the drone thing, but it seems hard to fit a long-range command destroyer with a tank), but your overview. I'm, not sure how you have your overview sorted as it doesn't make sense for me. you have your friendly ships on your combat overview. (having a purely friendly overview tab for doing logi is fine). You have too much on the overview.
I did notice you swapped to a ship only overview approx 1:29:40 in the YT clip.

I personally don't have stations or beacons on my overview, helps reduce the clutter.
I do keep the sun and stargates on my overview just to help orientate myself in space.

but I think the biggest advice I can give you is to make it that players who don't have a -5/-10/fleet member background a different colour, is to make people who have a neutral standing have a pure white background, that makes it easier to see when new ships are arriving on-grid or warping away.
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Tristle Boirelle

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Post 2019.07.21 05:12

Re: AAR Pseudo Booshers 06 July 2019 22:00

Rose Alice wrote:I'm not going to go over the fleet concept (which looks to be fine except the lack of prop-mod. Catalyst would better personally then actual command destroyers (Magnus if want to keep the drone thing, but it seems hard to fit a long-range command destroyer with a tank), but your overview. I'm, not sure how you have your overview sorted as it doesn't make sense for me. you have your friendly ships on your combat overview. (having a purely friendly overview tab for doing logi is fine). You have too much on the overview.
I did notice you swapped to a ship only overview approx 1:29:40 in the YT clip.

I personally don't have stations or beacons on my overview, helps reduce the clutter.
I do keep the sun and stargates on my overview just to help orientate myself in space.

but I think the biggest advice I can give you is to make it that players who don't have a -5/-10/fleet member background a different colour, is to make people who have a neutral standing have a pure white background, that makes it easier to see when new ships are arriving on-grid or warping away.


So let me correct something right quick, this is neither Lightsong's video or his overview. These are mine. So I'm going to answer your one question.

First the overview is set to sort by icon. This groups like items together and I can quickly identify information that I need while disregarding that I don't.

As for the reset of the comments: Noted.
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