[WHC] NNITH Brawl

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Calaheim Koraka

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Post 2017.04.21 09:45

[WHC] NNITH Brawl

The Fc's

First FC: Calaheim Koraka
Second FC: Kyle hargrove
Third FC: Analiese Aubernet


A short while after kyle brought the NNiTH Travel fleet into innu there was a callout by bargutos that there was a fleet on *bacon.
He got us a Dscan of the enemy fleet so we new what we where getting into https://adashboard.info/intel/dscan/view/tMNvOFju.

Kyle called for a Fc who wanted to learn wh fleet mechanics. I offered my self up as a fc. My personal thought before going in were welp this is going to either go really well or we are going to die horribly. As while i have fc'd before most of that ended badly and outside of that i fly logi and ewarr in fleets i actually get into.

I called for whc members to move to their squads so The NNith members could get their ships ready.
Once everyone was ready i started a wing warp to .bacon as They where coming in.
Sadly i forgot that wing warps only work on members that are on grid with you. so the fleet came on grid n two waves luckily they were close enough to each other that none got killed before Logi got their stuff together.

Once everyone Was on grid i Called primary on a Eos. Which survived.
After the eos we bounced between a couple of t3c and two gaurdians and a Harbinger navy.
They disengaged when theyre gaurdians stated breaking upon which the call was made to follow them in upon which Kyle took over.

Loss 0 isk
kill 0 isk

isk eff part 1 NaN


So For the first part everything went well we didnt lose anything sadly we didnt kill anything because off how wormholes work. Personally i think i should have chosen targets a bit better as for the most part i had us firing at amarr ships while there where a couple of tengu's ongrid which would have been easier to kill because of theyre native armor resists and hp. The tengu's them selves where possibly ecm boats which was causing some hassle.
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Kyle Hargrove

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Post 2017.04.21 10:20

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

Thanks to Calaheim for taking the helm on the first part of the fight! I think it was a valuable experience, and that he's definitely showing some promise!

On to the second part of the first engagement.

When the fleet gets handed over to me, the situation has changed dramatically from the beginning: initially, we even got some complaints about the fact that we were going to outnumber and outgun EyEs.FR too much, but it actually turned out to be quite the opposite.

As our opponent retreat, I ask everyone to pull drones and approach .bacon to follow. We jump through with the hole shrinking while we cross it, break cloak all together, and instantly take care of the Stork that our opponents have on fleet, that is forced to jump.

Calaheim's target selection in the first part showed me two things:
First, that we would not be able to easily break them, as they have good logi, and the sides are more balanced than expected. Second, they can't really break us either, relying mostly on T3 EWAR to eventually break us.

It's clear that we can't sweep the field, and it's also clear that we can't break T3 resists, so I resolve to start trimming out their DPS instead. Hopefully that'd give us some leeway to target their logi and/or EWAR later on. I start calling for fast target switches, and eventually a Brutix Navy breaks we switch to a Harb Navy which almost breaks then is probably caught with overheated reps, then test the ECMgu. They don't really break, so I call for a fast switch to a Guardian, that surprisingly dies, and back to the Harbinger Navy, that jumps the hole at half hull.

At that point, however, I also start getting the call that our Guardians are also popping, with Apollo dying to the three other Guards being ECM'd at the same time and Tylenos dying to mixed pressure. At this point, I'm starting to feel confident of our own ability to break them, but I also recognize that we're down to two Guardians, who are ECM'd and neuted, so I make the call to recall drones and jump back to Innuendo. Vidork's Guardian-Guardian Proteus dies from being left behind out of hole jump range. I'm not sure how that happened, but positioning with that kind of ship must be very tricky, so it's not a huge deal.

On the other side, the Harbinger Navy is there. We could have tried to pop him since he was basically dead, but in the hastiness of the moment I just called everyone to scatter. At the moment, the Guardians told me that we had no more logi, and I assumed they were all dead. In truth, two had died and the other two were just under heavy EWAR, but alive.

A better course of action would have been to kill the Harbinger, get the two dead Guardians to reship, get our remaining Guards to capchain, pull range and hold the hole, hoping for them to jump into us while giving us back polarization and home advantage, but in the heat of the moment I made a wrong call. Also, keep in mind that the hole had shrunk while we were going out: this meant that had we stayed there, if they jumped on us, they most likely wouldn't have been able to jump back, at least not the entire fleet, so that could have definitely been an interesting choice to make.

With people going back to their citadels and reshipping, I moved into a Guardian myself, and handed over to Analiese, that wanted to go for a round 2 (or round 3, I guess), so he'll take over with the storytelling.



I'm very, very glad that we got to experience one of these brawls. These are the very elusive good fights that we tend to find less and less nowadays. Truly, I think our NNitH people were quite lucky to find such good content!
Last edited by Kyle Hargrove on 2017.04.21 17:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Kyle Hargrove

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Post 2017.04.21 10:21

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

Reserved for part 3 in Analiese's stead
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Sayod Physulem

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Post 2017.04.21 12:45

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

Logi perspective:

We struggled with lots of ecm and neuts in those fights. In the first fight it began with lots of ecm (I think I broadcasted the relevant tengu at some point, not sure if that was useful) - we were able to keep up though until they left through the hole and we burned the 10km to the hole to follow. On the other side I was split between staying on the hole and pulling range. I think that I was going about 10km away but noone really anchored it seemed, but my memory is already fading. Ewar was worse this time they might have added more neuts. We kept up somewhat again until at some point we just lost all the cap in the chain and ended up completely dry. I think a little bit before that happens I piloted back on the hole (that might have caused this in the first place, dunno). So when we were cap dry I tried to relay that as clear as I could (I hope it actually wasn't just panicked brabbeling). So we were able to extract mostly. Some people were out of range though including our Guardian Guardian vidork ;-) in his sensor boosting/smartbombing proteus.

We could have done a few things better there:
1. better positioning away from neuts
2. overheating CT
3. overheating ECCM (apparently some even forgot to switch to ECCM at all :-p )
4. maybe cap chain up and down instead of using broadcasts. I am not sure on that one actually.

Con: Broadcasts enable you to direct the Cap to the people that actually get neuted
Pro: it caused more stress switching targets and might have meant that we were giving too much cap to people that didn't need it anymore (In the second fight I broadcasted for cap once and then they switched to me - without repairs running I quickly gained cap and was nearly full while other people complained about low cap - even though I was overheating my CT on them)
So simple up and down might actually have been more stable.

Now the second fight:
Well we lost a guardian because of cassiel getting caught before warping from the collapsed hole to the lowsec. With 4 guardians left I tried to position us behind the hic bubble in the sense of all the planets and the sun in front such that a warpin on the guardians would be hard to impossible. There were some customs offices that could have enabled them to get within 10-15km though but luckily they just warped from the front.
So this time we had some distance to them and you could feel that. Repairs where a lot easier even though we still had ecm jamming us. (We still lost a caracal instantly before reps landed but that wasn't suprising me) But the sacriledge they tried after that was easy to catch.
Shortly after I noticed that a few legions already burned through the bubble to the hole which meant they coverd half the distance to reach us on the other side of the bubble. I tried to steer us a bit away but it was clear very fast that this wasn't going to work so I instead collapsed the hole to enable a exit and announced that on comms.

Unsuprisingly we started to break shortly after and guardians started to jump out.

In general:
- please try to focus ewar more. It seems like you only shot dps
- web neuters if you can
- apparently we had an ecm boat that was capped out because neuted (even if we don't have any cap you might want to broadcast because if we can spare some cap giving it to our ecm is a very good investment as you then can jam the neuters and relieve us of that stress)
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2017.04.21 14:28

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

I joined shortly after the first fight, in a sacrilege at first, then after we lost guardians due to the chain collapsing in the second fight, I reshipped into a guardian for the third fight.

I must have missed the calls for the third one, because I never heard what the plan was, didn't know if we were fighting on the whole, what we'd do if it collapsed, how we'd deal with the neuts etc. I asked when we rallied on our side of the hole and got a brief "We're going to jump through and fight them!". At this point I assumed there was a plan to deal with the hole collapsing as it was brought up numerous times and people took care to offline plates and re-online them on the other side.

Once we jumped through, we got most of the people in, but the whole collapsed near the end of the fleet jumping through. We got most in, but not all. At this point, a voice in my head was screaming "Get off the bloody hole!" but for some reason I decided not to voice my opinions and focused on my role as a logi, so we quickly got our plates back online. In the meantime, the enemy was warping in at a distance.

Again my voice screamed in my head, "They'll warp right on top of us and catch people with too long align times.", but I didn't say anything as a call was made to align to the lowsec hole in the system. Problem was, that hadn't propagated to all of us, including Yuri who was in charge of fleet warping. Simple mistake to make if you're not familiar with wormhole mechanics, heck we even forget it ourselves from time to time. After some confusion, the call was made to warp to Bagutos (I think, if memory serves) but he didn't www-up and it took a while until someone linked his name and added www, by the time some of us was already chasing down his name in the channel list instead of quickly from the last message.

Luckily the enemy fleet was very slow in warping to their hole-bookmark where we were, for the most part, aligning to the low exit. That meant only one guy managed to warp there and lock a couple of people up, before the rest warped away. Me and Antiode were pointed and after a while also caught in an interdictor bubble for good measure, then subsequently killed and podded. Hilariously someone on the other side repped my pod twice, staying my execution by a few seconds, allowing to squeeze in a "Enjoy the pod!" in local (see here for why).

So constructive criticism ...

The plan:
From what I can tell, the only plan to deal with their neuts were to "keep distance". I apologize it there was more to it, but it seems like we just hoped the next fight would go our way. Which was a little untactful, if that's a word. If the plan was to warp to Bagutos or someone else to get off the collapsed hole, we should have had a clear call to put someone specific on our watchlist to help facilitate a quick warp-out, or a broadcasted celestial we can all align to while waiting for a fleet warp. Had we done that, we would not have had the initial loss (which thanks to the other fleet's slow response, was minimal, just 2 people). Make no mistake though, that could easily have been a far bigger loss had they been a little faster, or more people stuck without a bookmark propagated.

Cap chains:
One up, one down chains are in my opinion usually the best case when dealing with neuting. They require minimal effort and they sort themselves out without having to readjust chains as someone recovers from neuting. Due to spreading the neuts, no one chain collapses completely if someone is neuted, just one person. The half-cap you get from the other chain is usually enough to sort of keep your chain up (even though not at 100% effectiveness).

Laziness:
I don't die very often, so I adopted a lazy way of looking at my pods. Not that I can't afford to lose my pod of 500+ million, but more importantly I didn't really need that particular pod for this fight. It was a badly concocted pod to begin with as well, all learning implants when I really only needed 2. It combined a mindlink implant when I wasn't flying my Damnation etc. I could easily have sorted out my clones better and had a much more stripped down clone. Even with +5s I could have limited it to the two attributes I'm currently remapped for, instead of using all 5 (thus wasting 3). In my defence I have quite a few clones already and was forced to combine some, but that doesn't mean I could have planned and fixed that better. On the other hand, now I do have a fresh clone I can tailor a little better and there's still room to train Advanced Infomorph Psychology for even more clones :)

Final thoughts:
Thanks for the fight. It was an enjoyable and educational fight regardless of the outcome, so thanks everyone for stepping up and I hope you take the criticism to heart and help improve for your next fleet, no matter what role you had. Making mistakes is never a problem if you learn from them and try to improve for next time!
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Melkor Gengod

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Post 2017.04.21 15:14

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

Cass around the pod issues, ypu are certainly not the only one that does this. A few months ago I had the same problem. I had a mid grade slave set that add lots of other expensive implants in slots 6 to 10 which was fesigned to make my Proteus an almost indestructable beast with approaching 400k EHP. This worked fine in our run of the mill WH fights because alm the resists and buffer gave logi plenty of time to land reps and give me plenty of time to slowboat out of bubbles and crash back through the hole if I was in trouble. I flew that Proteus for nearly 2 years and was called primary lots of times and every time the enemy FC gave up and switched targets.
But I got complacent and one day we went baiting a Nid in russian sov only to find we were being baited and I got stuck in a bubble with a Hel on grid. The Proteus and the pod didnt last long. I knew that we were going into Sov and I knew the pod wasnt a good idea but out of complacency and laziness, I didnt swap.
What I leaned was to always have a clean clone in Ali and if I know we are going more than a couple of jumps from Innuendo or dont need all of the extra implants, swap out for the fight then swap back.

As a slight aside for any reletivley new guys to WHC, it is always good to have a quick way back to Innuendo if you get podded. For me, I have my home station set to Udema as it is reletivley central and I have a large selection of learning implants and other useful ones there as well as about 10 intercepters all fit up. If I get podded, I can replug in and burn back to Innuendo through the nearest k space connection in an inty even if the entrance is bubbled. In one fight against Hole Control I got podded twice and managed to make it back to reship within a few minutes
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.04.21 17:22

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

Good part of each AAR is description of own fleet composition, it helps to understand situation better.

Otherwise, I'm jealous fleet and fight was at early hours and I could not join
Join in-game "Budda's Fleet" channel for impromptu activities and quick updates on my future fleets.
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Bagutos

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Post 2017.04.21 21:23

Re: [WHC] NNITH Brawl

I was scout during all of these three engagements. It was an awesome fight and I have to admit that I'm a bit sad, that I could only watch it. I really liked Analiese's ballsy move to collapse the hole and fight them a third time. Of course that's easy to say for me, as I didn't risk any of my assets. Nevertheless, I like the attitude.

Let me add a few words on the beginning of this fight as it nicely illustrates the nature of W-space content.
Our original plan with the NNitH was to do some rage rolling. As there was no rolling tac up in bacon, I grabbed a cheetah and went inside - only to see a 7 (?) man fleet on d-scan. A few seconds later they landed on me and I reported the situation. For what happens next see OP.


Sayod Physulem wrote:On the other side I was split between staying on the hole and pulling range. I think that I was going about 10km away but noone really anchored it seemed, but my memory is already fading. Ewar was worse this time they might have added more neuts.

While the first fight was taking place, they brought reinforcements on *Bacon. Amongst those at least two guards, a Bhaalgorn and a few more ships. That obviously increased the neut pressure quite a bit.


Kyle Hargrove wrote:Vidork's Guardian-Guardian Proteus dies from being left behind out of hole jump range. I'm not sure how that happened, but positioning with that kind of ship must be very tricky, so it's not a huge deal.

Vidork was boshed during the fight, but then mangaged to warp out. When he came back our fleet had already left and their bubble was down. As he didn't land at 0 on the hole, I assume he initiated warp before the bubble was down.


Cassiel Seraphim wrote:After some confusion, the call was made to warp to Bagutos (I think, if memory serves) but he didn't www-up and it took a while until someone linked his name and added www, by the time some of us was already chasing down his name in the channel list instead of quickly from the last message.

I actually did put 'www' in fleet immediately after telling that I'm on the low sec connection. And several guys put my name in fleet chat only seconds later. Of course it would have been even faster if the fleet had known the warp in in advance.

SPOILER WARNING!
[ 2017.04.20 20:33:55 ] Bagutos > www
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:03 ] Dunar Dolorgiet > Bagutos
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:05 ] Tylenos Targas > Biwako Acami www
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:11 ] Tylenos Targas > Bagutos www
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:14 ] Kyle Hargrove > Bagutos
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:16 ] Kyle Hargrove > Bagutos
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:16 ] Yuri Titov > Bagutos
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:16 ] Bagutos > www
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:20 ] Calaheim Koraka > Bagutos
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:21 ] Calaheim Koraka > Bagutos
[ 2017.04.20 20:34:22 ] Calaheim Koraka > Bagutos
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