Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

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Daniel Souquel

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Post 2015.11.23 10:48

Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

As the title might suggest, i'm currently debating to swap my Damage Control II for a Reactive Armor Hardener. My armor tanked ship doesn't really care about shields/hull and the 60% variable resist sound much better, as the static 60% (15%/15%/15%/15%) from the DCU.

On paper, the Reactive Armor Hardener should end up with 30%/30% against thermal/kinetic for example, at least that is my understanding of the mechanics of that module. Only downside, it takes a while until these numbers are reached, depending on the Armor Resistance Phasing skill (resistance changes per cycle, the skill lowers the cycle-time).

My question now, is it really worth it... or is my thought process wrong?
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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.11.23 11:18

Re: Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

One, you don't mention how you'll be using the fit. That's kinda crucial. Specifics are best.

I'm going to assume it's PvE. For PvP, we already made that thread, and it was kind've interesting. Let me see if I can think of a single situation in PvE where I'd want to use an RAH.

Missions - No. I'd want to shield fit anything blingy. If for some reason it was a capable player with sufficient SP flying a cheap armor fit, then I would just run reps and hardeners, no DC or RAH. I'd run the DC if I desired some fuckup buffer--new player, shitty character, etc etc. By the time that you've stacked resists so high that the RAH becomes a superior use of a slot, your fit is probably really bad.

Belt ratting - No, you don't really need to tank that much.

Anoms - Ditto. Also, shieldfit.

Incursions - Omni damage and actives and yada-yada does anybody even run armor Incursions anymore? (don't bother answering, I really don't care)

Wormholes - Ask a wormhole dude. Although I've never seen a solo wormhole fit that used one, and I'd want the DC just for PvPability anyway. They probably don't even use them on the high-end shit because of neuts.

Total Answer

Your thought process is wrong, but not for the reason you thought. The mechanics aren't the problem. It's that your stacking penalties shouldn't be so high that an RAH is superior to hardeners (in other words, there shouldn't be that many hardeners).

Show me your fit and I'll be nice.
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Daniel Souquel

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Post 2015.11.23 12:31

Re: Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

That's the current fit, with the RAH.
SPOILER WARNING!
[Vindicator, PvE]

Large Armor Repairer II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Armor Thermal Hardener II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Reactive Armor Hardener

Cap Recharger II
Sensor Booster II, Scan Resolution Script
Cap Recharger II
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Cap Recharger II

425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Anti-Explosive Pump I


Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5


Armor EM Hardener II x1
Armor Explosive Hardener II x1
Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L x2500
Federation Navy Lead Charge L x2500
Optimal Range Script x1
Targeting Range Script x1

With that fit i'm sitting at ~80% resists (w/o RAH adjustments) for the main dmg types (therm/kin, in that case), with ~67k EHP and ~263 HP/s reps.

Damage is adequate, with ~600 DPS (~3.9k volley) for the guns (w/o resists). I'm ignoring the drones, because i rarely use them (only to fight off frigs and dessies).

Cap is not really an issue, with ~15 mins with all modules running (~5 mins full overheat).

"Shield-Fit all the things" is definitely not my style. And yes, i don't mind refitting for missions, so no need for a omni fit. I'm also aware of the fact that my ship is slow and it takes me ages to get to a gate, but that has nothing to do with my question.
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Glasi Vookto

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Post 2015.11.23 14:37

Re: Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

In PvE generally the DCU is not the first choice. You usually want to tank for specific damage types, so you'll want to fit single damage hardeners. For example, if you want to maximize your Thermal/Kinetic resists on that fit, you should drop the EANM and RAH and fit another pair of Kin/Therm hardeners. However, for about 2% less resists, the EANM/RAH combo gives you better flexibility and coverage against different damage types, so I think it's a good trade.

As side note, you might consider an Auxiliary Nano Pump in place of the explosive rig. That will help you against all damage types, not only in those missions that deal explosive.
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Daniel Souquel

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Post 2015.11.23 14:53

Re: Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

The rig is only there to plug the explosive hole, in case of omni dmg missions, or missions with more than 2 dmg types. For example missions against mercs usually have a fairly odd dmg-type distribution, making them a bit harder to fit against.
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Eklipz Badawan

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Post 2015.11.24 08:16

Re: Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

About 99% of all pve activities you can predict what kinda damage you are up against, and there will be a lot of situations there will not be a need to plug that EM hole, so your rig is a waste. The only pve activity with omni damage is incursions so only when u fit for those u will have a permament need to plug the hole. Yes armor incursion fleets are still being run by the odd community like TDF. Better to rig for damage and use mods to plug a hole when needed. DCU are great for pvp and im a really big supporter of the mod, but in pve i hardly use them for about the same reason i dont use rigs to plug a hole in pve. Theres better options available. Specific hardeners for one, more deeps in other occasions.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much...

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Daniel Wittaker

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Post 2015.11.24 11:41

Re: Damage Control vs Reactive Armor Hardener (PvE)

Some of the problems have been addressed by others. The rig is a big problem. 600 DPS on a Vindicator is a big problem. If you're missioning, not having a prop mod is a problem. This is why you shield fit all the things.

I imported your fit into my EFT and got 676 DPS, with a tank of 400/416 Serpentis. Then I applied the core principles of "shield fit all the things".

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vindicator, PvE]
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II

Pith C-Type Large Shield Booster
Pith C-Type Kinetic Deflection Field
Pith C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
Pith C-Type Thermic Dissipation Field
100MN Afterburner II

425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5


This fit tanks 196/573, which should be more than enough. Gun DPS, despite only fitting meta turrets, is 800. a 125 DPS improvement. It's also got better optimal and tracking. It doesn't run its tank for 5 minutes. Because it doesn't need to. It's also not very expensive at all.

http://evepraisal.com/e/8191498

And that's why I shield-fit all the things, PvE-wise.

---

But let's say you weren't disposed to such advice. Let's say, for some odd reason, you wanted to run an armor fit. The key to making an armor fit not suck would be to use as few lowslots as possible.

Let's see if I can do that with three lowslots. That would let me match the DPS of the shield fit, while giving me better tracking/optimal if I didn't completely shit the mids up. Which I won't, because I'm pretty awesome.

SPOILER WARNING!
[Vindicator, PvE]
Large Armor Repairer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Centus C-Type Armor Thermic Hardener
Armor Kinetic Hardener II

Heavy Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Cap Booster 800
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
Tracking Computer II, Tracking Speed Script
100MN Monopropellant Enduring Afterburner

425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Prototype Gauss Gun, Federation Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I

Hobgoblin II x5
Warrior II x5


Tanks 440, same DPS, better tracking/optimal, much slower. Same idea, doesn't really tank that long, because it doesn't need to. Unfortunately, the tank is a little dependent on those cap boosters if you can't just murder your way out of problems.

http://evepraisal.com/e/8191544

Tack another 25m on for the deadspace armor hardener. If you need to run an Angels mission, dump a Mag Stab for a 2xExpl/1xKin setup. Or use a ship that doesn't suck at Angels. Domi and Ishtar are both good, and when properly-fit, will blow the living shit out of Vindi DPS against a Therm/Kin-weak resist profile.

And no. I still can't find a reason to waste a slot on an RAH.

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