ancillary Remote repairers

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Hirmuolio Pine

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Post 2018.04.14 09:11

ancillary Remote repairers

What are the general opinions on ancillary remote repairers? They are not too old addition (released with citadels) and I haven't seen them being used in any UNI fleet or fit. Still at least for me they seem very powerful.

Lets start with the ancillary remote shield boosters.
* Loaded with cap boosters (9 navy or 8 t1).
* Does not use any acpacitor while cap boosters last.
* 60 second reload time.
* Repairs ~40% more than T2 repairer.
* When boosters run out uses 2.7 times the cap compared to T2.
* Only one module of this type can be fitted at once.

So like the local counterpart the ancillary remote shield booster gives absolutely massive repair capabilities for a short duration. And due to no cap usage you even fit oversized repairer and not cap yourself in two cycles (though the T1 logi ships seem to be toot ight to fit oversized repairer).

You could even work around the massive cap usage and fit ancillary remote repairer on an Osprey. With cap chain it can barely run stable ancillary remote repairer even without charges.

Ancillary remote armor repairer:
* 10% less capacitor used than T2.
* Loaded with nanite paste.
* 60 second reload time.
* While loaded with nanite paste repairs 70% more than T2.
* Without paste repairs 40% less than T2.
* Only one module of this type can be fitted at once.

Again massive repairs for short duration. And even after the paste runs out the repairer can be used but you lose half of your repair ammount.

So both modules offer large repairs until they need reloading. I think both of them would work well in small gang logi since the fights are short enough that the fight is over before you need to reload.
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Tahrl Cabot

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Post 2018.04.14 21:37

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

I think it would work well in tandem with normal Remote Reps to handle burst damage
Tahrl Cabot
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Hirmuolio Pine

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Post 2018.04.15 06:47

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

I did some looking at fits.

Since the ancillary repairer uses no cap you can swap some of the capacitor modules for more speed/agility. Both AB and MWD scythe fits would get one low slot for either overdrive system or nanofiber while keeping the current capacitor life. Or the MWD fit could be kept as is and be cap stable with the two normal reppers and one capless ancillary repper.

You could also create an inbetween fit. AB fit with same light tank as the MWD fit (one mid for capacitor). This wold free two low slots for speed/agility. Dual overdrive AB scythe would go 934 m/s instead of the usual 749 m/s.

Scimitar AB fit in the wiki has 3x large repairers and 1x medium repairer. It could swap one low slot cap module for one more PG module and fit 3x compact large repairers and one large ancillary (would also needa cheap +3% PG implant).

The MWD Scimitar fit on the wiki is bad. It has 3x power diagnostic systems even though it needs none in its current state.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2018.04.15 19:14

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

4 x LRSB II reps is 340 hp/s.
3 x LRSB II + LARSB is 374 hp/s for 72 seconds then 255 hp/s for another 60, on average 320 hp/s.
3 x LRSB II + MRSB II is 298 hp/s.

Some skirmish-like fits might benefit from it, but only if they can guarantee that they only need to rep for about 1 minute and then have at least 1 minute before they need to rep again. That's a pretty narrow scenario for a dedicated logistics, finding it hard to see the benefit.
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.04.15 19:25

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

The ancillary repairers are meant for burst repairs much like the local variant but its failings come in the fact that it is highly inefficient over the long run. Looking at it using Small Ancillary Remote logi module's cycle of repairing and reloading here is what I see.

  • Small Remote Shield Booster (and Ancillary)

    T2 and Ancillary Remote Shield Boosters run at the same rate of 3 seconds so we only need to check both for the duration of charges on the Ancillary repairer. We're going to run this on a Kirin at L5 skills. There are bonuses to capacitor costs and repair amounts.
    • Reps while Charges are Present
      • Ancillary: (9 charges of Navy Cap Booster 25) 9 cycles * 188 HP = 1692 HP at 0 GJ
      • Tech 2: 9 cycles * 128 HP = 1152 HP at 9 cycles * 18 GJ = 162 GJ
    • Reps while Reloading Charges
      • Ancillary: 0 HP at 0 GJ
      • Tech 2: (60 seconds / 3 seconds per cycle) 20 cycles * 128 HP = 2560 HP at 20 cycles * 18 GJ = 360 GJ
    • Running Reps without Charges instead of Reloading (60s)
      • Ancillary: 20 cycles * 188 HP = 3760 HP at 20 cycles * 35 GJ = 700 GJ
      • Tech 2: 9 cycles * 128 HP = 1152 HP at 9 cycles * 18 GJ = 162 GJ
    So over 29 cycles or 87 seconds we either get:
    • Ancillary Repairer with Reload does 1692 HP at 0 GJ
    • Ancillary Repairer without Reload does 5452 HP at 700 GJ
    • T2 Repairer does 3712 HP at 522 GJ
    Keep in mind that the average frigate logi has only between 600 to 700 GJ of capacitor without considering reduction from modules like MWD.

  • Small Remote Armor Repairer (and Ancillary)

    T2 and Ancillary Remote Armor Repairers run at the same rate of 2.25 seconds so we can follow the same process above. We're not counting the repair cycle at the end of 60 second reload because the repairer is mid cycle and the reps will only apply once we're at the end of the cycle. We're going to run this on a Deacon at L5 skills. Again there are bonuses to capacitor costs and repair amounts.
    • Reps while Charges are Present
      • Ancillary: (8 charges of Nanite Paste) 8 cycles * 166.5 HP = 1332 HP at 8 cycles * 10.7 GJ = 85.6 GJ
      • Tech 2: 8 cycles * 96 HP = 768 HP at 8 cycles * 9.56 GJ = 76.48 GJ
    • Reps while Reloading Charges
      • Ancillary: 0 HP at 0 GJ
      • Tech 2: (60 seconds / 2.25 seconds per cycle) 26 cycles * 96 HP = 2496 HP at 26 cycles * 9.56 GJ = 248.56 GJ
    • Running Reps without Charges instead of Reloading (60s)
      • Ancillary: 26 cycles * 55.5 HP = 1443 HP at 26 cycles * 10.7 GJ = 278.2 GJ
      • Tech 2: (60 seconds / 2.25 seconds per cycle) 26 cycles * 96 HP = 2496 HP at 26 cycles * 9.56 GJ = 248.56 GJ
    So over 34 cycles or 76.5 seconds we either get:
    • Ancillary Repairer with Reload does 1332 HP at 85.6 GJ
    • Ancillary Repairer without Reload does 2775 HP at 363.8 GJ
    • T2 Repairer does 3712 HP at 325.04 GJ

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The only thing interesting I see in this is that the Ancillary Shield Booster has very high repair values if you can feed the cap hungry module but without energy transfer or cap boosters you'll be hard pressed to run it for long. The Ancillary Armor Repairer is less impressive but doesn't drive up cap costs so while the throughput does not match what a T2 remote repairer can do in a long fight running chargeless is more sustainable to the logi ship.

Disclaimer: A lot of handkerchief math and tardy spreadsheets graphs were used to make this so feel free to call me out on any mistakes I've made.
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Hirmuolio Pine

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Post 2018.04.15 21:26

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

I decided to plot the same so we can check if my half asleep plots are same as your handkerchief math.

It seems like you plotted number of cycles on x-axis instead of seconds. I plotted just seconds.

Medium ancillary remote shield booster:
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medium ancillery remote armor repairer:
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So unless you keep the fight below ~90 seconds T2 wins and after ~110 (~130 seconds for armor) seconds meta is better. So at least for armor repaireing tha ncillary is possible replacement for a meta repper.

But how about capacitor deprived fits for shield repairing? With ancillary remote shield booster it is easier to have enough capacitor with MWD. Instead of capping yourself after X seconds run out of charges after 90 seconds.
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.04.16 01:32

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

I knew I'd miss something. I changed x-axis to time in seconds as well. Although your graphs look much better; plotly?

The meta vs cap booster argument is debatable. Do you really want dips in reps? Will those dips be enough for the enemy to break the their focus target? Meta may be better if you're looking at sustained incoming DPS. There is also the reload problem. I run 4 rep cycles do I reload and lock out one slot for 60 mins to catch the next burst or do I hold onto the remaining charges and provide a short set of quick reps before locking it out for 60 secs?

Going MWD is always a strain on cap because of how it affects overall capacitor amount and recharge rates. The question of prop mod comes from the expected speed of the fleet before stability and then people fit around what cap is left. Ancillary Remote Shield Booster will help alleviate the struggle for cap but then we'll have to compare cap savings from using that vs just fitting a cap booster in the mid slot with larger charges in the cargo hold. I would say its again situational.
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Yrgrasil

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Post 2018.04.16 12:59

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Are the Ancil Values in these Charts btw. overheated Values? Since the Amount is higher per Cycle you actually want to overheat them all the time, and i think this would be more realistic. You actually overheat regular ones also, but more from time to time.

The Shield Ancils don't use cap as already mentioned, you can use them pretty well on as example Battlecruisers for Remote Rep Gangs, or even Ospreys in a Fitting like the following:

SPOILER WARNING!
[Osprey, Osprey FleetAncil]

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

50MN Y-T8 Compact Microwarpdrive
Limited 'Anointed' EM Ward Field
Large Azeotropic Restrained Shield Extender
F-90 Compact Sensor Booster, Scan Resolution Script
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I

Large Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster
Medium 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Medium Murky Compact Remote Shield Booster
Small 'Regard' Remote Capacitor Transmitter
Large Ancillary Remote Shield Booster, Navy Cap Booster 150

Medium Processor Overclocking Unit II
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I


In comparison to our T2 Blap Osprey it has less tank and is not that ECM Stable, but it reps the same even without the Ancillary. On the other side you get a bit more Range and you can Double your Repair Amount for a short period of Time, which is really nice in the beginning of the Fight when the Alpha is pretty high on both sides.
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.04.16 13:52

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Overheating on all remote repair modules only increase the duration so they repair faster. By overheating, the modules will repair the same amount but in shorter time. This means you get higher HP/s but puts the ancillary modules on reload cycle faster. Overheating does not affect the reload cycle.

The only advantage ancillary repairers have on T2 modules is that the heat dissipation rates are similar to meta modules (withstands heat better) and module repair costs (nanite paste) should be lower as well. Of course once you start moving to deadspace mods the ancillary modules lose out on module repair costs. Edit: Come to think of it I could be wrong, I know some faction modules can be cheaper to repair. I feel the need to check to confirm this.
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Yrgrasil

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Post 2018.04.16 14:00

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Well, on a long term the output still increases since you reload earlier etc.., assuming that you use the repair all the time, and reload directly. Was more for the charts above to get an more realistic value over time.
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Decklin Quark Reiger

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Post 2018.04.22 04:06

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Yeah, you should for sure overheat the ancillary reps, any time you use them. They're for burst repairs, not sustained, so you might as well emphasise that aspect.

Overall, Cass' point stands, though.
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Laser Skaron

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Post 2018.04.23 12:12

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

A few other things to be aware of:

1) Logi has a lot of buttons to press already.
2) Reload is a nogo from the start, you have to constantly swap targets and most of the time just waiting for the cycle to run out is too long to land reps. Waiting 6 seconds to swap targets is often too long, waiting for a reload is a deal breaker. If your logi wing ever has to reload, you've lost half the fleet during that reload. Especially if your entire logi wing is running ancil reps, that means the first reload will likely be synced through the entire wing. I'll repeat that one more time: 60% of the time you do not have reps if you reload, please let that sink in.
3) First 2-3 targets in a fight are harder to land reps on (people are setting up, broadcasting late, DPS is more coordinated as it's easier to shoot the first broadcast). This would be a good argument that you need stronger reps early. You then stabilize and your goal is to be damage control and buy as much time as you can. Your goal is to prolong the fight.
4) Enemies will also split DPS, so logis rep 2-3 targets at the same time. It's already a challenge to decide which module goes where and which module should be next to turn off. Mixing different types of reps will be painful.
5) In a balanced fight, more often than not ships drop because reps are not landing on the right target, not because reps are too low.

To me this is a nogo.
Last edited by Laser Skaron on 2018.04.23 13:52, edited 1 time in total.
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Rashar Arji

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Post 2018.04.23 13:24

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Laser Skaron wrote:2) Reload is a nogo from the start, you have to constantly swap targets and most of the time just waiting for the cycle to run out is too long to land reps. Waiting 6 seconds to swap targets is often too long, waiting for a reload is a deal breaker. If your logi wing ever has to reload, you've lost half the fleet during that reload. Especially if your entire logi wing is running ancil reps, that means the first reload will likely be synced through the entire wing. I'll repeat that one more time: 60% of the time you do not have reps if you reload, please let that sink in.

First, I was under the impression you could only fit one? Secondly, I often see the argument for ARSB/ARAR to be an "edge when DPS pressure is high". I think this is flawed because often times you lose out on 25-30% of the reps, waiting for the pressure to be high enough to warrant the use of the ARSB/ARARs. Call me old fashioned but I think it's better to keep all available repping power, available at all times. This makes it easier for logi that already have a pretty stressful job.


Laser Skaron wrote:3) First 2-3 targets in a fight are harder to land reps on (people are setting up, broadcasting late, DPS is more coordinated as it's easier to shoot the first broadcast). This would be a good argument that you need stronger reps early. You then stabilize and your goal is to be damage control and buy as much time as you can. Your goal is to prolong the fight.

I think this would be the only scenario in which I actually like the ARSB/ARARs, the initial wave of damage. For the rest of the fight I prefer regular reppers. As said above.

Couldn't agree more with you.
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Biwako Acami

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Post 2018.04.24 03:49

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Comparing between them for burst, RASB reps more in charge-less scenario while the RAAR has better repair spikes with charges. Comparisons below are between a ship with one Remote Ancillary Repair module and 2 regular Remote Repair modules vs a ship with 3 regular Remote Repair modules.

At 60 seconds on the Kirin with RASB you get +46% HP for +16% cap usage from running the Ancillary Shield Booster with cap after it runs out of charges. That's +23% HP for +8% cap with one additional booster running and +15% HP for +5% cap with all 3 boosters running for the same duration in comparison to having 3 RSB. In all cases the RAAR setup repairs less than 3xRAR with more cap usage.

On the other hand, at the end of the charged cycles at 27 seconds the RASB reps for
  • RASB + 0x RSB: 1692 HP | +46% HP | 62.67 HP/s
  • RASB + 1x RSB: 2844 HP | +23% HP | 105.33 HP/s
  • RASB + 2x RSB: 3996 HP | +15% HP | 148 HP/s
in comparison to the RAAR that runs for 18 seconds and reps for
  • RAAR + 0x RAR: 1332 HP | +73% HP | 74 HP/s
  • RAAR + 1x RAR: 2100 HP | +36% HP | 116.67 HP/s
  • RAAR + 2x RAR: 2868 HP | +24% HP | 159.33 HP/s
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Rashar Arji

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Post 2018.04.24 06:25

Re: ancillary Remote repairers

Biwako Acami wrote:Comparing between them for burst, RASB reps more in charge-less scenario while the RAAR has better repair spikes with charges. Comparisons below are between a ship with one Remote Ancillary Repair module and 2 regular Remote Repair modules vs a ship with 3 regular Remote Repair modules.

At 60 seconds on the Kirin with RASB you get +46% HP for +16% cap usage from running the Ancillary Shield Booster with cap after it runs out of charges. That's +23% HP for +8% cap with one additional booster running and +15% HP for +5% cap with all 3 boosters running for the same duration in comparison to having 3 RSB. In all cases the RAAR setup repairs less than 3xRAR with more cap usage.

On the other hand, at the end of the charged cycles at 27 seconds the RASB reps for
  • RASB + 0x RSB: 1692 HP | +46% HP | 62.67 HP/s
  • RASB + 1x RSB: 2844 HP | +23% HP | 105.33 HP/s
  • RASB + 2x RSB: 3996 HP | +15% HP | 148 HP/s
in comparison to the RAAR that runs for 18 seconds and reps for
  • RAAR + 0x RAR: 1332 HP | +73% HP | 74 HP/s
  • RAAR + 1x RAR: 2100 HP | +36% HP | 116.67 HP/s
  • RAAR + 2x RAR: 2868 HP | +24% HP | 159.33 HP/s

Comparing armor repairers and shield boosters is like comparing apples and oranges though, they're vastly different. I also wonder if the ARSB have the same overheating properties as the local counterpart namely an insane gain in HP repped? If that's the case you should compare the ARSB with the heat effect when checking for burst reps.
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