Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

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Luca Goh

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Post 2017.07.22 23:21

Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

One of the larger training arcs on my newbro list is to get into T3 Destroyers. I'm really intrigued by their versatility, relative affordability, and potential firepower.

Is there broadly speaking a stand-out T3 Destroyer for PvP at present? Are certain T3Ds more versatile than others, both in how they can be fit for PvP as well as also potentially being used for PvE purposes? Given the overwhelming list of skills to train for newbies like myself, I'm presently interested in training into a single race's hull at the outset, although imagine I will diversify on down the line as my weapon skills become more varied and my interests wander.

Bonus consideration: is there a particular race's set of T2/T3 destroyers that are "superior" (I recognize the relative absurdity of this term)? i.e. Are there any opinions on which race's Destroyer V opens up the strongest and most diverse set of options? I'm mostly just curious on this front, with a long-term eye of training into Interdictors as well. It'd be nice to kill two birds with one stone when training my first Destroyer V.
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K950

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Post 2017.07.23 05:04

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

Caldari -- Jackdaw

The Jackdaw is a missile based destroyer by default with bonuses for missile launcher reload time and rate of fire by base hull. The choice of rockets or light missiles, 1MN afterburner, 10MN afterburner or 5MN Microwarpdrive tends to define most of the flying methods of this hull. As far as T3Ds go, it is fairly flexible, adaptable to a wide variety of situations and purposes, and in general is a well-rounded and fairly balanced destroyer.

For PvP it can do with a wide variety of ship fitting concepts meant for either general purpose skirmishes or for kiting. A decent fit can do roughly 330 DPS with Rage Rockets: specialized fits can reach out past 20 or even 40km range with rockets in Sharpshooter mode. There are buffer fits, active fits, passive fits and ASB fits. I have yet to see an armor Jackdaw.

For PvE it is one of the two sensible options for tactical destroyers which is quite suitable for most areas of space as a rapid high speed site running ship.

Amarr -- Confessor

Sticking with traditional laser firepower, the Confessor stands out as a nice option for many areas of space as another relatively versatile destroyer. It stands out for being the standard choice ship to use in C2 holes (W/R highly recommended), does well in other PvE avenues and does well as a PvP kiting concept hull.

Pulse and beam fits are available, with pulses mostly used by brawler based PvP hulls and beams being used for everything else. A good Confessor can do nearly 450 DPS with Multifrequency out to nearly 20km in sharpshooter mode. For some reason people seem to have a penchant for skipping on expanded probe launchers on these hulls. CPU is a slight problem with this hull, in a similar vein as the Jackdaw.

Gallente -- Hecate

Anytime I see a Hecate being tossed around the battlefield the first thing that comes to my mind is the face-bleeding 800 DPS hull tanked Hecate. Although not all of them are fit this way, once you see one of these in action you start to think strongly of doing something else.

The Hecate finds some use in Gallente L4 FW missions, as an eye-bleeding blaster boat (armor or hull tank, or hybrid), or as a rail platform. For PvE the railguns are a natural choice, but blasters work too for choice situations. For most situations the Hecate tends to perform best as a PvP ship -- and I see a lot of them around. They have natural counters and once you figure out which one you're going to fight then it helps to clear up the matter. Almost all are Microwarpdrive fit because of the way the bonuses work when it is flipped into Propulsion mode. PvE ones are normally afterburner fit. Aside from specific PvE situations it makes a poor choice as a general purpose PvE boat compared to the previous two.

Minmatar -- Svipul

The Svipul got a lot of attention in recent days for being a wicked instrument of death. The popular armor or hull tanked 280mm pea shooter with a scan resolution in excess of nearly 3000mm made it a natural favorite of gate campers - for obvious reasons.

In other avenues it has not been able to live to its previous heights but still can do well as a nice shield tanked autocannon skirmisher. In this role, as before, it retained much of the same profile as before, and you can see a variety of different concepts applied to this hull for that purpose. As it has fewer midslots than the Jackdaw most tend to go to the Jackdaw as a general purpose do-it-all ship for PvP. Previously the Jackdaw had 6 midslots and 2 lowslots, which was bliss for fitting a bossy tank but not much for damage.

Svipuls don't see much use in PvE. 1400mm artillery does do well in select PvE situations but otherwise autocannons do a lot better, and even then they suffer from reduced damage application and other concerns. For the most part the Svipul is a PvP keel.


You're probably thinking by now, gee, may as well just train them all. You can't really go wrong with that sentiment -- they're all good in their select situations and there are ones that perform better in this one scenario versus that other one over there. But given that most people won't do that, and try to make some consideration about the command destroyers and interdictors, the question lies thus -- what do I go with?

It's a difficult question to answer, but again -- train them all and the problem will be resolved, but anybody can say that. So let's break it down:

Interdictors: Sabre...Flycatcher.........................Heretic......Eris

Command Destroyers: See now that's where it gets tricky. It depends a lot on whether you count links from your command destroyers as an important asset to your fleet. If they are, then the Stork and the Pontifex are your best options, both can mount a fairly sturdy tank. It also depends if you're counting on reps from logistics -- and if you're using it as a jump destroyer with said fleet, or if you're expected to act a bit more independently. It also depends how you're using said jump destroyer -- sniping, snatching, or swiping. It also depends if you're taking the MJFG, binning it, and going all-solo with it and knocking up other ships with it.
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Luca Goh

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Post 2017.07.23 18:49

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

Thank you K9 for the wonderfully lucid synopsis. I really appreciate it. In my experience it's hard to Google Fu comparative info that post-dates the last nerf. I had been wondering about the present state of the Svipul given that reports from 2015 make it sound like an ambassador of death but that it had since been nerfed.

In thinking about my own purposes I may focus on experimenting with different weapon systems more to have a clearer idea of whether I prefer say missiles or lasers before training into one or the other T3D. I already have T2 beams trained, which provides a more direct line to the Confessor, but have always been intrigued by the Jackdaw too for its stated versatility. The added training time to obtain T2 missiles and rockets is brutal, though, for a newbie like me with so many avenues yet to be explored.

Does anyone have thoughts on missile versus rocket Jackdaw fits for PvP purposes? The Confessor seems more straightforward to fit from what I've seen with the main decision being which prop mod to go with (although I'd love to hear some thoughts on pulse versus beams if anyone has them). I don't have the fitting skills for the 10MN at present but I'm not far off and so think I could manage it in the not too distant future.
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Rose Alice

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Post 2017.07.28 13:22

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

K950 did an amazing job of breaking down the different Tech3 destroyers.
While i have had the most experience using the confessor is a mostly jump on battleships running sites through a frigate wormhole,
its what we use
SPOILER WARNING!
[Confessor, WH Confessor]

400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
True Sansha Adaptive Nano Plating

1MN Y-S8 Compact Afterburner
Warp Scrambler II
Small Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 100

Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Dual Light Beam Laser II, Imperial Navy Multifrequency S
Expanded Probe Launcher I, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
[Empty High slot]

Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II
Small Trimark Armor Pump II


21k EHP in defence mod with 77.6/70.8/74.8/62.0 resists
265dps with faction multi.
The confessor fits are running about 80-85m

We pair it up with a few of these

SPOILER WARNING!
[Deacon, WH]
400mm Rolled Tungsten Compact Plates
Corelum C-Type Energized Thermal Membrane
Damage Control II
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
True Sansha Adaptive Nano Plating

1MN Afterburner II
Small Capacitor Booster II,Navy Cap Booster 100

Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer
Coreli C-Type Small Remote Armor Repairer

Small Remote Repair Augmentor II
Small Remote Repair Augmentor II


The Deacons are about 140m swap bling to how much you can afford.
A single deacon lets the confessor tank 665dps.

But we have started moving towards command destroyers magnus, including being able to 4 mid slots, the ability to boosh and give links, but the biggest (and overlooked) reason,
WARP SPEED. the tech3 destoyers warp slow at 4.5au while the interdictor, command destroyers and t2 frigate logi all warp at 5.5au.

While the extra AU warp speed doesnt sound like that, it lets the entire fleet warp at once without slowing everyone down or having the tech3 destroyers warp themselves or have another person warp that wing/squad, and with most people running 2 accounts, streamlining as much as possible makes everything a little easier
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Luca Goh

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Post 2017.08.02 22:40

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

Thanks, Rose. From my understanding that strikes me as a pretty beefy Confessor. Interesting to seem them fit for tank like that. It's interesting too to hear your warp speed comments. The more I fly in fleets the more I understand how those little differences in timing can make all the difference.

Does anyone have thoughts on the pros vs cons of fitting a 10MN on the T3Ds that can accommodate it? I'm curious to hear thoughts on that trade off, especially for the Jackdaw and Confessor.

Also, thoughts on the pros/cons of fitting a Jackdaw for rockets vs missiles? LM seem more common to me; is this true, and is it an indictment of the Jackdaw's ability to tank?

Part of this training equation for me is considering what Interdictor I want to train into first, as I increasingly am interested in flying one. Everything I've read supports K9's basic equation, although I continue to wonder about the solo viability of the Heretic. There's also the fact that both Amarr and Caldari Interdictors share the same weapon's system, which overlaps with the Jackdaw but is distinct from the Confessor (though I already have T2 small energy weapons trained, thankfully). I'm a long ways away from T2 light missiles, but it has to happen sooner or later...
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K950

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Post 2017.08.03 15:08

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

For PvE purposes rockets or light missiles depends on how you like to PvE. Mine is rocket fit and I love it. Long range rocket fits can do more DPS but less volley damage than LMLs but are really good for mopping up 3/10s because split rockets are so awesome. They're also not bad for cleaning up BR 3/10s because the heavy TD is annoying to deal with for turret ships. Just make sure to close your EM hole hard.

Create a fit that can fit both, try both, see how you like them. Mine is PvP fit and has done plenty of 3/10s and other random things and I love it a lot -- wouldn't change anything really except probably tweak the rigs which isn't really possible because of calibration/CPU concerns.

For PvP avenues it depends - the Jackdaw is a scram kiter with rockets, a kiter with long range rocket fit OR light missiles.
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Luca Goh

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Post 2017.08.04 00:58

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

You're really selling me on the Jackdaw. :D I really prize versatility.

K950 wrote:For PvP avenues it depends - the Jackdaw is a scram kiter with rockets, a kiter with long range rocket fit OR light missiles.

Would you happen to have a long range rocket fit you wouldn't mind sharing, or advice on where to start building one? All the rocket fits I can find seem to be brawlers.
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Budda Sereda

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Post 2017.08.18 19:37

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

Luca Goh wrote:You're really selling me on the Jackdaw. :D I really prize versatility.

K950 wrote:For PvP avenues it depends - the Jackdaw is a scram kiter with rockets, a kiter with long range rocket fit OR light missiles.

Would you happen to have a long range rocket fit you wouldn't mind sharing, or advice on where to start building one? All the rocket fits I can find seem to be brawlers.

Standard question: what purpose for? I guess you already realize that purpose dictates needs and fits? How long range?
Fit with no missile range (velocity/fuel) modules/rigs would be 10.1km range with faction missiles, 8.5km with Rage, and 15.2km with Javelins.
Is this not enough? You could switch into Sharpshooter range and get 66% more range and 33% damage. 16km with faction missiles and 25.2km with Javelins. Should be good to hit even from the point range. If you need more than you need to fit range modules and compromise tank. Why doing that?

I did come up with some fit, but not sure if it should be shared with people as I do believe you better use missiles for long range.
Join in-game "Budda's Fleet" channel for impromptu activities and quick updates on my future fleets.
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K950

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Post 2017.08.20 03:07

Re: Talk to me about T3 Destroyers.

[Jackdaw, Jackdaw - Shield MWD Rockets Extended Range Mk2]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

5MN Quad LiF Restrained Microwarpdrive
Warp Disruptor II
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Range Script
EM Ward Amplifier II
Medium Shield Extender II

Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Rocket Launcher II, Caldari Navy Inferno Rocket
Core Probe Launcher II

Small Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II
Small Polycarbon Engine Housing I
Small Processor Overclocking Unit I


Zainou 'Deadeye' Missile Bombardment MB-702


Missile Bombardment to V is seriously recommended for all missile users because of flight time / server tick reasons. 4.02sec flight time with MB V and the implant shown. 319dps cold in sharpshooter mode out to 24.976km.

I have another variant which has different rigs and lows, but runs an expanded launcher. PvE fit is a bit different.

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