New Marauders

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Sin Tsukaya

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Post 2013.09.05 10:53

Re: New Marauders

Hmm, perhaps the tone came out wrong - I meant to suggest that they were getting better at it, and that it was hard, not that it was working fine.

I agree with the premise that RR fleets are not a sensible thing for the E-UNI Incursions community to do, except possibly to get some experience with something new and different.

(Which, to be fair, isn't an awful goal for a teaching organisation to have - but since it's not something that any of the established groups do, it's not as though we'd be teaching a useful skill).
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Barrogh Habalu

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Post 2013.09.05 11:54

Re: New Marauders

Cassiel Seraphim wrote:And then the fact that the guy running the ore in Nation Mining Colonies couldn't get any reps at all since he'd run out of the repair range on unbonused hulls like Marauders.

Just to go with theorycrafting further, someone with all-marauders fleet will have to become good at angle estimation so that ore delivery doesn't take more than 1:30 or so (two micro jumps will be needed, as well as a single ship in the fleet equipped with MJD obviously).

On a side note, the latest marauder proposal update was met mostly with rage and the thread in Eve-O is going to reach 130 pages quite soon. I'm greatly surprized that people care of marauders (of all damn things, month ago I'd swear that those ships are among least flown) more than about medium guns, command ships and probably HACs.

That, or people are just attracted by the novelty of more or less accessable space transformer which does local reps - something that few ships can do well - and is eyecandy :D
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Shirralia

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Post 2013.09.05 12:29

Re: New Marauders

It's been a while since I ran VGs...
Is it not possible to just run the ore in a frigate equipped with an MWD that comes in just as the last rat dies? IT wouldn't even have to be in fleet, would it?
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Sin Tsukaya

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Post 2013.09.05 12:41

Re: New Marauders

I'm going to assume that messes up payouts somehow.

The explo frigates (used as scout/hacker anyway) ought to have the cargohold, though.
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Barrogh Habalu

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Post 2013.09.05 12:49

Re: New Marauders

Shirralia wrote:It's been a while since I ran VGs...
Is it not possible to just run the ore in a frigate equipped with an MWD that comes in just as the last rat dies? IT wouldn't even have to be in fleet, would it?

In truth, properly timed delivery by regular fleet member will be faster than MWD frig arriving after cleanup. That said, I believe that "completing" site with OOF ship will not help those who shot Sansha... And probably that OOF pilot as well. I have no hard knowledge on this though. I doubt a lot of people tried something like that due to what I stated in the beginning of this post.
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Shirralia

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Post 2013.09.05 12:52

Re: New Marauders

Barrogh Habalu wrote:
Shirralia wrote:It's been a while since I ran VGs...
Is it not possible to just run the ore in a frigate equipped with an MWD that comes in just as the last rat dies? IT wouldn't even have to be in fleet, would it?

In truth, properly timed delivery by regular fleet member will be faster than MWD frig arriving after cleanup. That said, I believe that "completing" site with OOF ship will not help those who shot Sansha... And probably that OOF pilot as well. I have no hard knowledge on this though. I doubt a lot of people tried something like that due to what I stated in the beginning of this post.


This was aimed at people that may want to run spidertanking fleets in VGs, so I figured the 2 extra DPS on the field may warrant having a frig come in after the fact.
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The majority of people have an above average number of legs.
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Titus Tallang

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Post 2013.09.05 13:19

Re: New Marauders

Barrogh Habalu wrote:On a side note, the latest marauder proposal update was met mostly with rage and the thread in Eve-O is going to reach 130 pages quite soon. I'm greatly surprized that people care of marauders (of all damn things, month ago I'd swear that those ships are among least flown) more than about medium guns, command ships and probably HACs.

That, or people are just attracted by the novelty of more or less accessable space transformer which does local reps - something that few ships can do well - and is eyecandy :D


The previous iteration of the Bastion module would've made the Golem a ridiculously over-the-top EZmode L4 boat. With the tank bonus given by Bastion it would've simply made losing the ship borderline impossible.
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Leevi Serafin

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Post 2013.09.05 15:22

Re: New Marauders

Regardless of changes, I'd still be happy to welp a Vargur in a VG site just to prove it can, or cannot be done :p Since the PVP potential on the marauders is huge I'll be training into them anyway.
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2013.09.05 20:39

Re: New Marauders

Barrogh Habalu wrote:On a side note, the latest marauder proposal update was met mostly with rage and the thread in Eve-O is going to reach 130 pages quite soon. I'm greatly surprized that people care of marauders (of all damn things, month ago I'd swear that those ships are among least flown) more than about medium guns, command ships and probably HACs.

I can only speak for myself, I had given up on Marauders a few years ago (insane training requirement for virtually little benefit compared to other ships, and in most cases the other ships were cheaper and better).

So when they finally did announce they'd look over Marauders, I got very, very excited about it. I reckon others did too, hence the outburst in the forum from all these people.
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Barrogh Habalu

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Post 2013.09.06 05:22

Re: New Marauders

Titus Tallang wrote:The previous iteration of the Bastion module would've made the Golem a ridiculously over-the-top EZmode L4 boat. With the tank bonus given by Bastion it would've simply made losing the ship borderline impossible.

In truth, except token few, L4s are already EZ-mode for pretty much everyone capable of fielding something that costs about the price of marauders.
I doubt that new marauders will be breaking any completion records, be it L4s or incursions. They always were (and will be unless next rebalance round will do something mean) pretty much inferior to pirate BSs for those purposes in hisec while rather expensive and skill-intensive to fly them in null (seriously, I imagine ratting in carrier, of all things, would be safer and faster, with similar training time now; alternatively, ABCs will do same things cheaper in many regions). The only thing going for them was ability to loot on the fly that maybe allowed them to somehow compete in missions with other ships in terms of ISK/hour.

Cassiel pretty much nailed it (there, in barackets) already though:
Cassiel Seraphim wrote:I can only speak for myself, I had given up on Marauders a few years ago (insane training requirement for virtually little benefit compared to other ships, and in most cases the other ships were cheaper and better).

So when they finally did announce they'd look over Marauders, I got very, very excited about it. I reckon others did too, hence the outburst in the forum from all these people.

I must confess. I like shiny ships with unique abilities. Despite insane traning requirements, I was ready to commit because space transformer with low-cooldown "blink", disregard for EWar annoyance and insane high slot based tank (hint: possibly an armor ship that can actually compete with shield PvE setup) has that fresh air about it.

It could have its niche in PvE and maybe even PvP (i guess mostly in quiet lowsec or hisec wardecs, but this is still a niche afterall).

One thing they were pretty much subpar for was incursion running. With new iteration these ships became slightly better for incursions, but I just can't see anyone using them over pirate battleships still (Kronos comes close to being nice but that's it I'm afraid). And for an expensive and b@#%h-to-train ship that's a role you either perform the best, of you go home. So in the end that change helped noone in incursions.

For missions T2 resists may be good (again, Kronos both tanks and deals most damage to derpentis rats, Golem can fit here too) or may be absolutely irrelevant (if you use Paladin against something that deals Kin/Exp mix, you are doing it terribly wrong).

On PvP, I think I can't really comment. But I'm sure that in PvP marauders are terrible lossmails, but what goes for them? They may be good in RR gangs (if you screw bastion you can probably fit some reps and cap chain on them), but are you sure that you'll use hideously expensive battleships, even though with 4 untility highs and T2 resists, over something else in numbers (and as far as I can tell, they can't compete with the likes of foxcats or other "field a hundred of slow and shiny ships" due to buffer issues as CCP nerfed marauders' HP)? I may be wrong, but I feel that sickinengly strong local repping is something that could carve a small niche for them, something that just being shiny RR BS ship (is it even a doctrine now, outside of Domi fleets?) won't.

EDIT: Oh wait, they are keeping their sensor strength it seems. So I doubt about RR even more now.

Oh, but it still blows up a dickstar. Something this ship would do better in iteration 1 version due to better bastion mode anyways.

Eh, that was one hell of a rant, sorry. Bottom line is:
- 10-11 marauders (Kronoses/Vargurs) fleets may or may not be somewhat decent in VGs;
- some of them will be good in missions/anoms, but hardly the best choice IMO;
- Paladin sucks. If someone can show me why I'm wrong here, I'll be happy.
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Kataki Soikutsu

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Post 2013.09.06 14:39

Re: New Marauders

I think the Vargur looks the best with the current iteration. Seriously you can do a 3 web Vargur for VG! And it will have better tracking than the Mach. (Maybe Mach gets more tracking modules...) Just tank it with a Pith C Invuln, Kinetic Rig, and Extender Rig. Then use 1 mid slot for a SeBo, giving you over 300 Scan res, and you have 3 slots left over for bonused webs. Even in Assault & HQ the hull looks nice because it can actually fit the T2 1400mms and will have good tracking. The one downside to the hull is it still has lower damage than the current Mach. It has fewer effective turrets, fewer midslots, and a smaller dronebay. So to me the Vargur currently looks like the most interesting Marauder for Incursions.
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jovoooo

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Post 2013.11.20 21:32

Re: New Marauders

Not sure if there are enough incusionistas with marauder skills to test these theories.
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Violet Giraffe

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Post 2013.11.22 08:54

Re: New Marauders

Guys, I think Kronos is the best marauder for VGs (and probably not only for VGs). Only a bit less DPS than Vindicator, no web bonus, BUT a huge range bonus. In other words, a Kronos is better than a 4th Vindicator. Maybe even better than 3rd Vindicator?
I am really going to try Kronos when I have enough ISK.
BTW, I can fly Kronos and Vargur. Only Marauders IV, though :(
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Cassiel Seraphim

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Post 2013.11.22 14:32

Re: New Marauders

Kronos vs Vindicator, the short version ignoring the fact that the Kronos takes forever to get into compared to the Vindicator.

Kronos pluses: 30-37,5% better falloff, 4 utility highslots, better cap.
Kronos minuses: -12,5% damage, -1 midslot, no web bonus, -1 rig slot, much lower tank, worse drone bay.

The falloff bonus gives you a 16 + 34km range with null and 5,7 + 25km with antimatter vs 16 + 27km null and 5,7 + 20km antimatter for the Vindicator. Admittedly Void has a larger window of opportunity for the Kronos, 8,5 + 12 km vs 8,5 + 9,8 km. You'd still shoot mostly antimatter though, either way. Due to the role bonus of the Vindicator of +37,5% damage and the Kronos only having +25% (with max skills), most of the range benefit is eaten up by lower dps to begin with.

Despite the resist bump, it's hard to fix the much lower shield hit points due to the missing mid and rig slot. Heck the Vindicator could easily put in an Ambit rig and close the falloff gap, or fit a metastasis rig for increased tracking and easily make up for the difference.

PS. For armour it might be a closer race, as the increased cap allows for an easier time zipping about, but then again for a pure comparison, the Vindicator has a rig and a midslot it could theoretically use to get better cap ... so I still think the Vindicator wins no matter how you tank it.
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Moxquito

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Post 2013.11.22 15:44

Re: New Marauders

I Checked with TVP and they still turn down Marauders when they can get pirate BSs instead.
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