[WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

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Titus Tallang
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[WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Titus Tallang »

So, WHC wanted to go attend the coronation of Catiz I. PIRAT being on grid in 12 nestors might have been involved in the decision. I pointed out this was suicide. People wanted to go anyway. I shrugged and started forming up a fleet.

Form-up point 1: Logi. We scrounged together 5 Guardians, which was the minimum I wanted.
Form-up point 2: Gallente ECM to break the Nestor spider. We found some.
Form-up point 3: T2 DD, because anything T1 resist would melt. We found some of that too.

With my three pain points checked off, we headed out, but PIRAT used Bowheads to get out of dodge before we arrived. Bullshit mechanic, that (scientific term).

Luckily, the grid was incredibly crowded, so a Public-Enemy Loki didn't notice us arriving until it was too late. Score one for the away team. That's us, for the record. We don't belong in this strange space.

The grid being clear of red flashy, we sit around a while after docking up to repair heat and drop LE timers (I definitely don't want our Logi going suspect on this grid).

Then, helioswipe reports being aggressed by a WT on the trade hub undock. I decide to bring the fleet over to see if there's something we can play against because orbiting a Titan gets boring at some point. We land and tackle the WT, with DD and zero and logi at range. Immediately the grid fills with red, because fair fights are not something to be expected here. So it was bait. I order deaggress and hug station for DD, expecting logi to be safe 50km off. Weapon timers expire and we lose a Pilgrim. I have no idea why we even had a Pilgrim on that grid. Way too squishy.
DD docks up and Guardians warp out, but in that moment a Nemesis lands on them and points two of them. Score three for the home team. Guardian death toll up to two.

While we're sitting in station taking care of various bio breaks, we lose a Legion that thought it smart to travel without refitting to covops. Don't do that.
Eventually, we undock again, having replaced the lost Guardians, and bounce off an instant undock to return to the event site. No more fighting on station, I decide; 'tis a silly place.

We set up on the grid, with logi 50km off the DD blob. Minutes pass. Finally, PIRAT decide to take the juicy morsels, but they land a warp-in on our logi blob. Vindicator webs do nasty things, but Guardians are amazing beasts, so our reps hold. They brought only three Nestors, which isn't that much repair power, and the bloodthirstiness of the grid means that they're unlikely to have any success using OOC logi. I go for a Nestor, and order jams on the other two, while utility neuting off the Vindicators. It helps, Guardians stay stable, and the Nestor begins bleeding armor.
Then, our Logi falls ill with an acute case of the Falcon, as two random jams land in quick succession. Have I mentioned that ECM is a really really silly binary mechanic, recently? We lose a Guardian, and that means we're losing this round. I order scatter. The DD get out, since they were on the hostile Nestors, a good distance away from the Guardians, who aren't so lucky. Three get pointed and exploded as the remainder of the fleet runs away. If you're keeping track, that's score eight for the home team, and a Guardian death toll of six - so far.

We dock up and get some reinforcements from WHC home, but they run into some Public-Enemy ships along the way. WTs that aren't near any PIRAT blob? Sounds like a deal to me, so we head out and jump into a mixed Battleship/T3 fleet on the Ashab gate in Madirmilire. As we load grid, there's a Jackdaw right next to me, which looks both tasty and squishy. It blows up, followed by a Hyperion.

As we start on the second Hyperion, the overview fills with flashing red. Apparently Public-Enemy decided that calling on PIRAT for help was a thing they will do now. Lovely, so if we go away from the Nestor blob, the Nestor blob will come to us. I don't want to play with this on a gate, so we decide to deaggress and hug the gate while tanking. However, one of the Guardian pilots forgets to pull their drones, meaning the Guardians are a good 20 seconds late on the deaggress. And then, as per Murphy's law, another sudden case of Falcon happens. Two guardians get jammed simultanously, the rest cannot hold reps and two more of the mighty beasts are committed to their final rest before weapon timers run out and the rest escape. Score ten for the home team, three for the away team, and a Guardian death toll of eight. They just can't catch a break.

I've decided I've finally had enough of this silliness, and the coronation has concluded either way. We limp home.

The good:
  • Pew was had
  • Logi held pretty damn well for most of the time, considering what was shooting them
  • Got to see Kelon's girlfriend the empress
  • Thanks for reshipping a lot, guys
The bad:
  • Falcon is a pain
  • Guardians just can't catch a break
  • Like really
  • How do you even manage to lose 8 out of your 5 guardians
The ugly:
  • PSA: ECCM midslots were changed to Sensor Boosters. There's a script for them now called "ECCM Script". Please use it.
  • Traveling alone in a HAM legion without travel fitting it is pointless suicide.
  • When fighting in k-space, always keep track of everything that causes weapons timers. That includes drones. We might've lost less without that.
*creak*
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Cat Evergreen (Biomassed 2017.12.02)
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Cat Evergreen (Biomassed 2017.12.02) »

From my experience a Falcon has no problems jamming an ECCM scripted Guardian. Logi pilots still need to make sure to have that script and use it, but the only way to counter Falcons is to bring your own Falcon (or a whole squad of remote ECCM support for our logi).
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Bora Vyvorant
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Bora Vyvorant »

I think switching to ECCM probably would have helped some, but for the record we were being sensor damped as well at least some of the time.

They had an ECM Tengu with them as well as the Falcon, though.
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Glasi Vookto
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Glasi Vookto »

Cat Evergreen wrote:From my experience a Falcon has no problems jamming an ECCM scripted Guardian. Logi pilots still need to make sure to have that script and use it, but the only way to counter Falcons is to bring your own Falcon (or a whole squad of remote ECCM support for our logi).
Damps usually counter a Falcon much more efficiently than either ECM or ECCM.

A max skilled Falcon will be able to consistently jam 2 Guardians running ECCM scripts if he brings a full rack of Amarr jammers - which they probably did. Two Falcons would pretty much shut down the entire Guardian wing.

Bringing your own Falcon just to counter the enemy Falcon could work, but it's a waste of resources IMO. You'll need at least two Caldari jammers to consistently jam him, but it's still chance based and you may miss out, leading to him possibly taking two of your Guardians out for 20+ seconds, which in turn may result in you losing ships.

Damps, on the other hand, work consistently and 2 bonused damps will force him into point range (27km), while 3 damps will force him dangerously close to scram range, effectively shutting him off unless he wants to risk dying.
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White 0rchid
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by White 0rchid »

Glasi Vookto wrote: Damps usually counter a Falcon much more efficiently than either ECM or ECCM.
Pretty much what I said in slack an hour ago

http://i.imgur.com/oMshtHw.png
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WE FORM V0LTA
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Glasi Vookto
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Glasi Vookto »

White 0rchid wrote:
Glasi Vookto wrote: Damps usually counter a Falcon much more efficiently than either ECM or ECCM.
Pretty much what I said in slack an hour ago

http://i.imgur.com/oMshtHw.png
Exactly. Although I would bring a Maulus instead of the Celestis if you don't plan to brawl with it. Better mobility and easier to position on grid.
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Rashar Arji
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Rashar Arji »

Utility mids for EWAR on DD should be enough to get it off. Unless you decide to go with fits dedicated for taking out stuff at range or CDs.
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Fe Long Amouh
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Fe Long Amouh »

Was amazed to see the Amarr undock happening, watched it all from my t1 frigate alt pilot
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At the Honour Guard
Sadly my out of corp alt couldn't fully bump the nestors hard enough to fully separate them but many folks tried, including some RVB. I think a few did get separated to help the dps land
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Vidork Drako
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Vidork Drako »

Sorry I am a bit late on comments but I was busy.

I am usually too cautious, its why i decided to respond to the call with my proteus to force me to take a risk, but I was still very surprise by that move in Amarr. We know its PIRAT play ground. They have all their logistics there. So yeah, I was surprise but ... considering the situation in Amarr at that time, we had a chance for a hit and run. My alt had eyes on these 12 nestor and I saw them breaking slowly. But we was just too late about that fight. We still landed on a Loki and it was a nice catch. Thats the moment we should have stop that operation. Hit and run.

The following moves was just a call to be murdered. I am still surprise we dont all die during the second fight. A luck for us, its look like they dont know how to point properly (as us by the way). I was that unconfortable than I had my "warp to" ready to click during the all fight.

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The fight at Station was just ..... a bad call.

About, the last fight on gate, dont assume PIrat and public-enemy was working together at all. Its both high sec pirat corp, they use to have eyes everywhere around, PIRAT just saw us leaving Amarr and went to catch us when public enemy was already moving to catch one of us in front. Its pretty simple and dont ask any elaborate theory. They both wanted a part of the cake.

Anyway, my biggest concern during all that fleet was about understanding you Titus. I am sorry but you were unclear many times and It made me nervous and I assume i wasn't the only one . When we did move from Eggs to Amarr, fleet was split. We had 2 logi far behind, alone, trying to catch us. I know, you wanted to catch these Nestors but still ... After we killed that Loki, someone wanted to kill a flashy abaddon, you told us to warp to a wreck there, you gave us a name (still dont know who it was) ... no broadcast, no www in fleet. Result : half of us was standing alone in the middle of 400 peoples, when half of you guys just warped away .... seriously ? What if PIRAT had landed at that time ? And finally, the station fight began with a call to warp to *someone* .. again what the hell ? Should I know everyone in the fleet and understand / find that guy in just 3 second in my fleet windows ... some of you guys was already in warp when most of the fleet was still looking to find where to warp to. (Guess how logi chain was effective on that one) So I know you have a big experience in fleet operation, but sorry to tell you, there is a big problem about comms. You speak too fast, its hard to get what you say. You don't give clear directive.

Broadwast during that operation from the beginning to the end :

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If I am telling that, its not to say you are a bad FC or something. Thank you by the way to have leading us to these very complicated fights. But you need to realize than unclear directive have a direct impact on how peoples feel, how effective the fleet is and how many peoples will respond next time we form up.
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Zeerse Solaris
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Zeerse Solaris »

I'm sure the AMC could have rustled up some Griffins to annoy PIRAT before becoming all explody. Let us know next time!

And yeah, Public Enemy perma dec us because they were originally hired by PIRAT to help defend in their POCO bash and didn't like the result at Kehour. So would expect they put a call out to PIRAT to come help in Mad.
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Budda Sereda »

I want to support concerns about comm.
Been a new pilot I often have difficulties getting instructions from FCs. I was not in fight in Amarr, I'm speaking about other fights.

FCs: please do broadcast targets and give people time to react.

Thanks, hope this makes sense
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Khanjar
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Khanjar »

My two cents:

We probably shouldn't have been playing around at that event and then gotten butthurt about losses. That being said...

It was an impromptu fleet, and fairly chaotic. I think both Titus and Vidork have some points. Communication needed to be better, but many times if you take no risk there is no possible reward. Regardless, taking ships to Amarr during a coronation event you know you have a high chance of losing them.

Now, in my opinion, if a director or officer of the uni is leading a fleet...srp should be a given for logi when it's requested by the fc unless specifically and clearly warned that it won't apply. Here's why.

If you fly logi your whole mindset is supporting your Corp mates. The only reason you fly logi is for that reason, so telling your Corp no when there's a call for logi is just not in their nature. I can't imagine that too many folks will volunteer to fly logi if they continue to fund it from their own pockets. As a new logi pilot I can assure you after one or two losses I'd just start bearing instead of pvping.
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Azure Rogue
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Azure Rogue »

Khanjar wrote:Now, in my opinion, if a director or officer of the uni is leading a fleet...srp should be a given for logi when it's requested by the fc unless specifically and clearly warned that it won't apply.
Unless something has changed... http://wiki.eveuniversity.org/Ship_Replacement_Program should apply.

Also, it sounds like you're arguing that logi pilots wouldn't likely fly if SRP didn't apply... but that rings false to me (both as someone who flies logi and as someone who has gone without SRP for long periods of time). If the Uni all of a sudden revoked SRP all together, I would bet it would equally influence logi and DPS pilots' willingness to fly on PvP fleets.
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Richard Marte
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Richard Marte »

Azure Rogue wrote:If the Uni all of a sudden revoked SRP all together, I would bet it would equally influence logi and DPS pilots' willingness to fly on PvP fleets.
I suspect this is true for the most part.

I don't think that lack of SRP would influence whether I participated in an op. It probably would influence how I participated in an op. I actually keep some cheap T1 hulls around WHC just in case it seems like the campus wants to yolo and I want to join in on the fun.

SRP certainly softens the blow when taking expensive ships out to combat.

However, when deciding how much risk an engagement holds, SRP is probably one of my lowest concerns. I think the biggest predictor of loss for me tends to be "Is there an FC." That is, is there ONE person who is CLEARLY in charge of the fleet, and is the fleet in fact acting like a fleet and not a bunch of eager capsuleers bloodthirsty to charge off. Clear hints that this isn't the case are things like nobody bothering to ask about fleet comp, people bringing self-rep ships, it not being obvious on comms where the fleet is actually forming up, the "FC" is already engaged in Bacon and calling for anybody around to warp to them, etc. SRP or not when I hear that I know it is time to dust off my Vexor. :)

(Note, I'm not opposed to helping out people in need when they're getting ganked, but sending a bunch of HACs and above into a site when the enemy is unknown sounds like a great way to lose a bunch of ships and not one. Cheap tricks like sending ECM at range and such to extract are a different matter, as are coordinated PVP responses backed by reasonable intel (ID corp, scout if necessary, etc).)
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Neonen Enderas (Biomassed 2017.06.23)
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Re: [WHC] A slaughter of Guardians

Post by Neonen Enderas (Biomassed 2017.06.23) »

Oh, SRP discussion?
*digs out his walking stick*

I think SRP is important for new players to simply give them stuff to play with. Sucks a bit if you have to grind hard for a cruiser... and then end up with 5 minutes of content.
But older players? Get some ISK income. :lol:
Richard Marte wrote: I think the biggest predictor of loss for me tends to be "Is there an FC." That is, is there ONE person who is CLEARLY in charge of the fleet, and is the fleet in fact acting like a fleet and not a bunch of eager capsuleers bloodthirsty to charge off.
A good FC is a lot more fun than SRP btw. Because a good FC means content, usually good content as well.
Good FC = great cost-benefit ratio
SRP = no influence on the quality of content, ergo not really important. But needed for new players.

I think I just read the AAR for the 50th time. ECM is such a lovely mechanic.
༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ Did someone say "Stealthbomber"? Explosions? And ECM? I'm in! Let's blow shit up! ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
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