Impromptu WTs fight: we won!

[Budda Sereda]

I was going to prepare for tomorrow class but heard in comms about WTs camping Ansalle.

It was 2 Cerberus, 1 Orthurus, and Wolf.

Originally, when we just undocked we had 2 logies (in Augorors), 1 Blackbird, 4 BLAP Vexors, and 1 Dessie. It was risky, but those never win who don't take a risk. Later we got a bit more people joining us...

It was an interesting fight: those guys were kiting us at 40-50km, we first tried to bait them on 3 Vexors and leaving logies and ECMs in Amy: they did not take the bait and applied damage from the distance. Somebody raised valid concerns that those guys did have OOC eyes in both Jufvitte and Amygnon. Vanguard jumped back to Juf.

We tried to position our tackle at celestial they were aligned to, but as soon as we got vanguard docked they started active orbiting...

I got my OOC alt on top of them and tried to warp vanguard on top of those guys - they were too quick so while we landed they were 20-30km far away.

I believe they got 1 more person joining them in VNI ... and somehow he appeared on the gate in the scram range... so we got him pointed and super webbed... we primaried him. Due to some reason he was not dying ... dunno why, but his friend in Wolf came to share comradery with VNI

Unfortunately, that did not help: I asked few points and web on Wolf, we killed him and later VNI

Durieng the fight we lost both logies... But they saved at least myself and I think did help quite a few people to survive. THANKS A LOT!

We tried to warp on top those guys few more times from pin (300km from the gate), but still did not work.

During that those guys kept kiting us and orbiting, attracting guys from fleet. Quite a few times I called people to come back to the gate or to myself... but we still got loses.

We tried to tackle them in 2 T1 tackles (Atron and Slasher) and it did not work. Tacklers always were starting at range and just could not land close enough to targets and were killed closing range. Later we thought we could combine these efforts together with jamming the prey... but tackles were already died.

At some point, I called it a fight and got fleet back to home.

Adoulin ap Io
Aisha Kasenumi
Atticus Vex
Budda Sereda
Copeslayer
Davnik Heasithym
Eulynn
Jim Electron
Laelapos
Marn Vermuldir
Nikki BDB
Nuefrau Simalia
Olga Ukrainian
Oskar Dallocort
Razer Thukkerkin

Kills and Losses
(04:38:14) Ansalle
Condor -8m
Vexor -38.77m
Capsule -0.01m
Augoror -22.17m
Wolf +112.05m
Vexor Navy Issue +195.75m
Blackbird -18.64m
Cormorant -4.34m
Augoror -20.5m
Slasher -1.62m

(05:06:08) Ansalle
https://zkillboard.com/kill/62803317/ - was not picked up by report tool

(05:06:08) Ansalle
Atron -3.06m
Slasher -1.16m
Griffin -0.78m


Stats
ISK Destroyed: 307,798,528.18
ISK Lost: 119,051,521.89
ISK Delta: 188,747,006.29
Efficiency: 72.109%

We remained ISK positive, get fun, but unfortunately left the field for opponents. In fact, they warped away few minutes after we moved back to home.

What was good:
1. We won engagement!
2. We were ISK positive!
3. We got FUN!!!
4. We did practice PvP
5. Even though we had a feeling we had too many ships, there were very few really 'bad' loses. Others happened either immediately after kills we made and we had only 1 logy left while still had a weapon timer. Or when hero-tackles tried to do their job.

What could be better:
1. Vexors are slow, AB Vexors - ... I knew that and was going to engage expected to bait opponents or tackle, but that did not work. We may have more chances with MWD fits I guess, but still don't think we would be able to catch either Orthurus or Cerberus in Vexors
2. I need to adjust my pace to cruiser-size fleet: after roaming in frigates and dessies ... vexors just slow
3. Once it happened that my command to jump from Amy to Juf was not heard: I guess I need to be more specific and clear...
4. We do need to think about a tackle for BLAP Vexor doctrine.
5. We do need to think about a doctrine which will be well fit for this type of fights. Maybe use Orthurus / Cerberus ourselves and backup them with logies?
6. During fight quite a few time I did call to dump those guys, but there were times when I wanted to reset timers and did not dump them... and we had people lo
7. ECM-guys: I do believe you need to think and learn how you were killed, you should have stayed alive whole fight.

P.S. Feel free to share your feedback https://goo.gl/forms/W6OTiwPMD2Lu1lmL2

P.P.S. Today we had enough number. But I still want to encourage EVERY HSC member to install and use slack, next time we should ping for PvP and get more people. What if they had OOC logies? https://forum.eveuniversity.org/viewtop ... 56&t=90171

[Budda Sereda]

...

[Razer Thukkerkin]

Unfortunately, I was too late to the party to get in on any kills. I did however finally get to undock my shiny new HSC CDI Prophecy and join the fight. War targets were just too stinking fast for me to do much to in a BC , but lessons were learned and I look forward to the next WT engagement.

[Budda Sereda]

Unfortunately, I was too late to the party to get in on any kills. I did however finally get to undock my shiny new HSC CDI Prophecy and join the fight. War targets were just too stinking fast for me to do much to in a BC , but lessons were learned and I look forward to the next WT engagement.

Why CDI Prophecy? Fleet was in BLAP Vexors. You have same tank (armor), but you were slower and "CDI" portion of your Prophecy (neuts) was kind of useless while Damps would relly benefit.

[Truely Canadian]

Orthrus pilot here!
We had a great time engaging in this battle. Our 4 man fleet couldn't be happier with the entire engagement it was heart pounding for us all yet so confusing.
Our main question amongst ourselves is why is the VNI pilot not on comms, why is that VNI pilot not responding to our chat, why did that VNI pilot jump into your fleet. Why is that VNI pilot now in a pod, just why in general
We still don't have the answer.... Well other than as to how he ended up in a pod, that we know. (We aren't counting that kill as apart of this fleet battle for our mental stability.)
We weren't expecting to be able to break many of the Vexors with the 3 Augs on field as well as ECM considering we had maybe 1500DPS from the 4 of us which soon became the 3 of us when we asked the Wolf to pop a pod and he got too close.. whoops.

We ended up happy with the results when the Eve Uni fleet disengaged us for the last time with the 4 (3) of us Acquiring 12 kills while dealing with both the Logi and ECM that had been on the field.
As for the tactic of trying to warp onto us, it would have been successful if it hadn't been as obvious as it was to see coming (Try something with a cloak)
We certainly would not complain about seeing a mix up in fleet comp and patterns from Eve Uni!
If you would ever like to arrange a fleet fight with IKR please contact me in game and we can decide when to have some fun.

PS.... We totally won With us killing 153Mil while our fleet lost the 112mil... VNI role in the AAR is up for debate

[Ersin Oghuz]

Well if we are to count out the single pilot deaths who are not in fleet and comms.... hmmmm. Ok lets take out 8 billion kill off from IKR side. We are winning the war now, great
It seems both sides had fun... Good job Budda

[White 0rchid]

Glad to see bladerunnr25 is still a terrible pilot. He was suspect baiting in a vexor on an undock once. I yellow boxed him and baited him with 2 Warrios, then dragged him off station so he couldn't dock.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/52857337/

He complained I used 'overpowered' fit after I dropped Geckos and started repping with Ctypes. (It was a fully pvp fit VNI)

Also, why 110mil Wolf? Just why.

Aside from that, your ships were all over the place in terms of fits, the BLAP vexors have damps on them do they not? You'd have done better using them to either force them off or force them in.

[Budda Sereda]

Hi White, how is you kill related to WTs fight?

BLAP Vexors do have dumps and I called fleet to use them. Not sure how good did we do though,
But I do believe we did well at least sometimes as in the first fight after losing both logies we did not have further loses, I guess that because opponents were damped

2Truely: I agree with concern about VNI. I'm glad it is not only us who have this type of things.

But I have same question about the Wolf pilot: did he come to secure kills? I would say that was waste: we were not going to run, though I guess that should be considered by pilots.

And just for the record: we got 3 Augorors after the first fight. They did help us to not lose any more dd (except of the solo hero vexor - not sure why he attacked and did not stop once I called to stop).
If we had 3 augorors from the beginning we would not lose neither did nor logy. I think.

Would you mind to answer few question for education purposes? What was your fit? And how would you engage if you were on our side?

[White 0rchid]

Hi White, how is you kill related to WTs fight?

Nothing, it is the same pilot as your VNI though. I was simply agreeing with the earlier sentiment that he's an idiot.

[Budda Sereda]

Hi White, how is you kill related to WTs fight?

Nothing, it is the same pilot as your VNI though. I was simply agreeing with the earlier sentiment that he's an idiot.

LOL, you don't need to be so sincere

And I still would like to hear more specific advice on how to catch those guys. During fight I could not answer what would catch them well so I did some research on possible fits and from what I see Orthurus can do around 2700-3000 m/s cold, 3700-4000 m/s hot, he can tank 500 DPS and project around 500 DPS with fury LM (Dual LASB fit from wiki). Cerberus is slower: can do around 2000 m/s cold and 2700 m/s hot; project around 450 DPS.

So if you are trying to tackle them from range if you can't make 5000 m/s - you just feeding a kill mail. Now I realize my call yesterday to try and tackle them in T1 frigates was just a sign of inexperience (read stupid). I did know most likely we will lose tackles, but what if opponent make a mistake?

Anyway, In order to catch those 3 guys tackle should have scram+web and be able to tank 1500 long enough so rest of the fleet to join. What ship can do that? First thing which comes to my mind are HICs: they are tough (100k EHP+) but slow... they have around 20km scram range (with scram script), could survive long enough, but can they CATCH the fish? Only by surprise. At least they can push opponents FROM the grid. Already a mental victory. Or they can bring more content.

2nd option is Lachesis: standard WHC armor fit has scram range around 20km, but less EHP than HICs and same low speed. But Shield fit has a potential: it can make 2200 m/s cold, has 42k EHP and 18km range.

The only problem is both HIC and Lachesis cost as much as half of the BLAP Vexors fit...

Anything can do work better or is significantly cheaper? Maybe there is some crazily quick AB version of frigates?

[Titus Tallang]

Long webs/scrams are very powerful for catching kiters.

[White 0rchid]

Don't underestimate the power of small fast tackle as well. I'd happily throw a couple suicide frigates at them to scram them down (I'd probably pick a good time like their RLML reload to do it though), as the kills are probably fairly high value.

[Budda Sereda]

Don't underestimate the power of small fast tackle as well. I'd happily throw a couple suicide frigates at them to scram them down (I'd probably pick a good time like their RLML reload to do it though), as the kills are probably fairly high value.

Do you mean T1 or T2? We probably need to through 10 T1 frigates so couple land a scram and at least 1 stay alive while fleet lands. That sounds just stupid.
Stiletto (2 nanos+polycarbon rig, not sure if that is a good fit though) can do 4900m/s cold and 7000 hot... having 2-3 interceptors could also do a job if the fleet is sitting at the pin. Still, should have an element of surprise, but losing a few interceptors is better than losing a HIC or ForceRecon.

So, summary for HSC guys: train into interceptors!

Titus promised to work on support ships for BLAP program... waiting!

[White 0rchid]

You have several choices (these are just a few):

• Take something that can project as far as they can. That way they are either forced to commit or disengage.
• Use ~elite manoeuvres~ to land tackle and warp to your dude. Euni has a habit of waiting behind a gate a lot. What ends up happening, in reality, is people just die trying to 'bait' or tackle. Your fleet should be inside the system, on grid, at a ping for something like this to work. Stop letting your tackle dudes die one system out from you.
• Use a fleet comp that can't commit to a real fight but can force them away (such as a the blap vexors). You'll not get as much satisfaction with this as they will be forced to disengage and go elsewhere without you getting a kill most likely.

[Budda Sereda]

Yeah, in fact we did quite a lot of dancing on the gate, it was a bit stressful, but we did stand the ground and were not taking stupid loses.
We also tried to land from the pin, but did not have even t1 frigates to tackle at that time...

And now I do have few more ideas on how we can improve. That should also work even with t1 tackles.

I don't really like to upship.

@Truely: come back in few days!

Thanks