[HSC] BLAP Talwars low-sec roaming - II

[Budda Sereda]

I'm posting AAR for 2nd fleet,... just because I did not post the 1st one and want to make sure I want delay 2nd.

Roam members (38):

Spoiler

Aisha Kasenumi
Alucard Paradigm
Aric Garrett
Auresh Odunen
Baelthorn
Bill Achasse
Budda Sereda
Capt Steele
Carl Misjekis
Dale Inkunen
Darkfoe Eto
DonkeyPunch Udan
Enfarious Krividus
Face Punchington
Jared De
Jiggly Tofu
Jowemado Egivand
Jyo Cbip
Keuthein
Marn Vermuldir
Mrcrab Bojinov
Phaithless
Philbro Kishunuba
Prime Lancelot
Pronto Pup
Reichat Oughto
Reise Amatin
SketchyManDan Williams
Sone Eto
Tom Endares
Trevor Grambling
Trystel Nickel
Vors Voorhorian
Will Musana
Wokum
Yuri Levnik
Z0X Ambrye
gaheris Anninen

Fleet started really fun: I created fleet 30 minutes before planned, .. and people started joining to fleet and Mumble I was traveling from Stacmon to Amygnon and asked if somebody wanted to join, Will replayed he is moving too, but spotted WT in Ishkur... As it was only 2 of us both in Talwars, I reshipped into Warm and warped to Aidart gate... Ishkur disappeared, Will was trying to find him,.. while Ishkur jumped through the gate to me!

I started a brawl, it was hot, I thought already I'm going to die, but did have a hope that Will will join me and in a last volley pull the Ishkur down.
I do have recording (and if it is not corrupted again and I don't play much, will try to post it). Last second of the fight Will jumped and applied some damage (53 HP ), but I did finish the Ishkur

Nice warm up

(01:33:26) Stacmon
Ishkur +70.29m

Thanks Will!

We did form up, done a newbro speach, explained how is important to not warp if FC asked to allign only.
We tried to find WTs in HS, but could not and went to low-sec. Somehow gaheris managed to warp to the wrong gate... and killed an astero lol

(02:28:00) Jufvitte
Astero +101.47m

Few catches during roaming:
(02:47:16) Renarelle
Algos +9.94m

(03:01:06) Aldranette
Imicus +4.38m

Don't remember details about this kill:
(03:08:31) Nennamaila
Talwar -7.53m
Capsule -8.26m

At some point, we saw a 5-8 cruisers fleet, got scared of them and run away. They had 2 Exequors, ONI, don't remember what else (3-4 more DDs). I got panic poison from fleet and commanded to run. But I think we could take it: jam 1 logy, shoot another... 20-25 Talwars and other ships would be able to push 1 logy quickly...

Later, I tried to bait that fleet, but they flew away. While we were trying to bait them... Jyo found Phantasm in Akidagi,... and somehow survived until fleet arrived, and even while fleet from the gate in plex shortened the distance and get ito shooting range...

(03:15:38) Akidagi
Phantasm +980.72m

GREAT JYO!!!

Tackled Thrasher in Nennamaila, but he killed 2 scouts...
(03:29:18) Nennamaila
Crow -31.48m
Slasher -2.13m
Talwar +10.1m
Strange, I guess scouts get too close?

Tackled Drameil, but he appeared to be too good and killed scout until we landed.
(03:43:33) Hikkoken
Crow -31.35m
I guess I should analyze this more...

At some point we've met a group of thrashers. Somehow I got confused and thought they are flashy, but they were not... I commanded to start shooting them... but later realized they are not flashy and we did not have enough logies to take that so I commanded to scatter.

Unfortunately we lost few guys. And thanks logies to save FC.
(03:49:30) Pynekastoh, Amygnon
Talwar -23.57m
Capsule -56.9m
Cormorant +11.19m
Talwar -8.39m
Capsule -0.87m
Capsule +0.01m
Now I think we should just pull the range and try to alpha 1-2 of them... it could work.

We made a pin on the gate and tried to pick few fights on gates, but no success:
(04:14:52) Nisuwa
Kestrel -14.12m
Griffin -1.4m

And in Hirri we were camping the gate when a bunch of big flashy guys jumped into us: Tempest, 2 Bhaals, Nestor, Gnosis, Onyx.

I decided to take it.

First we primaried Harbinger, it took 4 of us and 2 minutes of shooting and overheating to shoot him down.
(04:26:44) Hirri
Talwar -8.8m
Talwar -9.25m
Slasher -1.82m
Talwar -8.93m
Harbinger +77.5m

After, I called a primary for Tempest. The only alternative was Gnosis, but I kind of thought that tempest should not be well tanked.

Crow -31.46m
Griffin -1.83m
Cormorant -2.79m
Talwar -14.87m
After I was killed: Talwar -12.69m I called for 2nd FC (Z0X), he was already down. I called Jyo ... who called 'scatter'.
Talwar -7.82m
Burst -5.53m

I think it was the right call as we were not breaking Tempest: I guess this time Nestor did his job well.

One of the problems was that MANY people were not focused on primaries. I don't know and would like to learn why? We did have Tempest at some point low in armor, but he got reps. Would we kill him if we all focused? Maybe.

Maybe people just were not in range? Or maybe they did not respect the call to focus on the primary?

Also, as I pilot I did a mistake and came TOO close to Gnosis and to the rest of the hostiles: staying in range I would leave longer. I think the same applicable to others.

What I could do better as FC is to focus EWar wing at some specific targets. I do assume they jammed Nestor successfully, otherwise, we would not kill a Harbinger too.

Request to all in fleet: once you have died please say in loudly and clear fleet "-1 DD" or "-1 Logi" or "-1 EWar": this helps FC (at least me to stay on track and understand how we are doing).

Anyway, this was a good educational fight. We lost ISK war in this fight, but still, it was good! I'm glad I took it.

Interesting thing, that somebody after fleet donated me 250M ISK I guess, that was somebody from those fighters As I promised, I will distribute them somehow to make it fair.

Stats
ISK Destroyed: 1,310,167,699.39
ISK Lost: 364,709,564.81
ISK Delta: 945,458,134.58
Efficiency: 78.225%

First HSC fleet was good (AAR still pending), today - was GREAT!

Many thanks to scouts - you were the most valueable today.
Jyo - you were FANTASTIC!
2nd kudos and thanks to logy you did save at least me twice (once in a fight with Thrashers, 2nd in the last fight I was primaries early in the fight). If I did not have logies, I would not take that last fight.

2Fleet: Thanks to all for joining, that is my first roaming with 37 attendees. Though next time, please be more open to fly logies: 3 logies for 30 DD is... TOO little.

P.S. Feedback from fleet about talwars was not really impressive, so most likely we will try something else in future. Stay tuned!
P.P.S. Recommendation to all other FCs: start with small fleets, don't rush to lead a gang of cruisers, frigates and dessies are fun too!

[Budda Sereda]

BTW, killed Phantasm dropped some loot: http://evepraisal.com/e/17394439 (thanks Baelthorn for collecting and contracting it to me)

Now it is at Akidagi, let me know if you want to purchase something, so this will go towards payout to fleet members too

I think it would be a nice addition to fun

[Adrien Claremont]

Hi Budda,

I was just wondering if you would be able to give a little more feedback as to why either yourself or the fleet members thought that the BLAP Talwar fleet was unimpressive? I haven't flown one myself so it's definitely on my radar as a doctrine I want to play with myself in the very near future.

For the fight with the Thrasher you mentioned that you should have pulled range. Were you fighting in brawling range on a gate? For the battleship fight, you mentioned that people possibly could have been outside of range for that fight? What was the idea range you were looking to fight at?

I noticed you had a very specific set of fleet requirements, including recommended numbers for logi, boosters and EWAR which you had from speaking to Raido? Did he give you any additional pointers on how to FC the fleet?

I'm tempted to take them out to Null the first chance I can get, so I'm doing all the Talwar reading I can.

Cheers.

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

I'm also surprised that you're looking for logi at all in a Talwar fleet. Are you flying it more like a general purpose brawling or mid-range fleet instead of kiting at long range using your alpha strike?

[Pronto Pup]

A newbie point of view on several of the fights, including the Tempest/Gnosis/Harbinger in particular. My max range in the Talwar was 62km (I know, better skills will improve that). I was unable to apply dps much of the time because the targets were beyond my range. A target was called, I MWD toward target, and eventually get close enough to apply dps. Then primary is switched (as from gnosis to tempest) and now I am out of range from new target. More time spent burning and not shooting. Then target is switched again.

I am trying to think of what the solution is. I can improve my range and speed with better skills. Partly it was due to the enemy being spread out - out of our hands. But partly it may be because I was orbiting my primary target at 50km, which may take me far from the secondary and make target switching difficult. I know I am flying a kiting fit and don't want to get too close to the enemies. Is 50km too large for an orbit? Should I try to manually pilot toward secondary while shooting primary?

All in all a fun fleet, and surprisingly I did not lose my ship (I still had 25% of my structure left when I got home). FC did a great job keeping most of us alive and explaining reasons for different actions. I am getting more comfortable flying in scary lowsec, even if only because I have a gang of friends with me.

Edit: I did not overheat anything. Maybe I need to work on that.

[Reise Amatin]

Very nice job Budda! Clear comms, ZERO dead air, great flow of information, kept everyone on the same page. Really excellent job.

I found that the biggest problem was that people were not listening to the FC, which could be expected with new players. Fleet Ops are hard to wrap your head around. In the battleship fight for instance, we had dps on both the primary AND seconday targets. The FC called the primary, gave the ship type and name, I'm not sure what was happening that people were attacking the secondary target. When we finally focused fire we started taking him down. When scatter was called his shields were almost gone, but for the first 2/3 of the fight when our dps was split we never got him below 70% shields.

As for unimpressiveness of the doctrine as a whole, I was thinking the same thing, but in review I think I see where we could have improved. A lot of the time, we were jumping into plexes to engage, meaning we were starting the fight on their terms. If we turned it around, I think it would work better. This Talwar doctrine is kitey, which to me seems to mean that you have to camp the fleet on a gate or plex and let everything else come to you. I think with players who are experienced and know how to pull range to get out to optimal this fleet could roam, but a few times, including the BS fight, we were starting at brawl range and had trouble pulling out to kite.

Another thing that might help is a dedicated anchor. As Pronto said above, everyone just pulled their own range and at times we found ourselves outside of primary range. This was also an issue for the Logi pilots, since the fleet was spread out they had a hard time applying reps. We probably needed another logi or two (or more), but I think having a fleet anchor would have made the Logi more effective. Quite a few times we would find a target and folks would get excited and just start blasting away and the target would be dead before everyone could get an offensive module on the target. Again, newbie fleet for the most part, and this is all part of the learning curve.

Personally, this was my first time flying EWAR. I had set myself to not take fleet warps, but I'm not sure that was such a good idea. I was nearly caught in a plex by a cruiser gang at one point because the fleet warp kicked in and I forgot I was exempt. So I either need to keep fleet warps on or remember to stay conscious of my warp status. Is it typical for EWAR to not take fleet warps? I can fully understand it for scouts, but EWAR (or Logi) I'm not sure. That was my major mistake. I also had the general confusions of what to target when and what to activate, but that's all a matter of practice.

[Titus Tallang]

Not finished for Official Consumption™ yet, but check out this (esp. the part on Talwars) if you want some background info.

Main point of contention: anchoring. You want to anchor the whole fleet on one person, keep them all in a ball, thus making sure everybody is in range of the thing you're calling. Individual piloting is death for kiting fleets in most cases.

[Reise Amatin]

Not finished for Official Consumption™ yet, but check out this (esp. the part on Talwars) if you want some background info.

Main point of contention: anchoring. You want to anchor the whole fleet on one person, keep them all in a ball, thus making sure everybody is in range of the thing you're calling. Individual piloting is death for kiting fleets in most cases.

OMG, does this mean I'm actually beginning to understand tactics?!?! I feel all giddy and light-headed

[Decklin Quark Reiger]

Personally, this was my first time flying EWAR. I had set myself to not take fleet warps, but I'm not sure that was such a good idea. I was nearly caught in a plex by a cruiser gang at one point because the fleet warp kicked in and I forgot I was exempt. So I either need to keep fleet warps on or remember to stay conscious of my warp status. Is it typical for EWAR to not take fleet warps? I can fully understand it for scouts, but EWAR (or Logi) I'm not sure. That was my major mistake. I also had the general confusions of what to target when and what to activate, but that's all a matter of practice.

When I fly ewar, enabling or disabling fleet warp will vary, depending on if I need to be positioned differently then the main bulk of the fleet.

For Talwars, which should be fighting at max range, and benefit most from damps (Keres or Maulus) and long webs + target painter (Hyena, or possibly just Vigil for the
target painter), the ewar and Talwars should stick together, since both need to be used at long range. Logi shouldn't really be a thing on a Talwar fleet. So in a Talwar fleet I would accept fleet warps, particularly since I would expect it to be fighting in null sec, and I might need the FC to warp me to a ping to avoid bubbles.

[Mongo the Mechanic]

In Null at least you might want logi for the interdictors and light tackle that pin down your targets. Otherwise the Talwars should be anchored on someone that is flying at the edge of the shortest range that is set by the FC(based on skills and modules used). The Talwar fleets that I went on several months ago used sensor damps to keep the enemy unable to target at range and we just deleted the ships 1 by 1.

So if 60km is the range that most of your pilots can target and hit to you need to stay at that range or a little less and have tackle keep the enemy on grid long enough to kill them.

[Budda Sereda]

Hi Budda,
I was just wondering if you would be able to give a little more feedback as to why either yourself or the fleet members thought that the BLAP Talwar fleet was unimpressive? I haven't flown one myself so it's definitely on my radar as a doctrine I want to play with myself in the very near future.

After the fleet, many pilots reported that Tristans (I assume Hyperkittens) are more fun: they require more actions than Talwars.

My personal observation:
1. Very big dependency on scouts. In "regular" fleet DD have point and losing a tackler later is not a big deal. With Talwars losing a tackler is losing a killmail.
2. The problem with range caused by lack of skills: when I asked people to tell their missiles radius I got all from 37 till 68. Anchoring at 35 to allow everybody to get into kill - mean be too close to the opponent. Anchoring at 55 - means many won't get into kill and we won't have much DPS. Considering problem #1 we need to finish opponent quickly while tacklers are alive.

Though, I do want to try BLAP Talwars 1-2 more times.

For the fight with the Thrasher you mentioned that you should have pulled range. Were you fighting in brawling range on a gate? For the battleship fight, you mentioned that people possibly could have been outside of the range for that fight? What was the idea range you were looking to fight at?

We jumped into them through the gate so it started as brawl. But we immediately pulled range.
I asked everybody to orbit at his optimal. Which for missile-based turrets I consider to be a missile range -10%.

I noticed you had a very specific set of fleet requirements, including recommended numbers for logi, boosters and EWAR which you had from speaking to Raido? Did he give you any additional pointers on how to FC the fleet?

I'm tempted to take them out to Null the first chance I can get, so I'm doing all the Talwar reading I can.

Yes, those numbers (unless I've corrupted them) recommended by Raido in the link referenced by Titus above.

I'm also surprised that you're looking for logi at all in a Talwar fleet. Are you flying it more like a general purpose brawling or mid-range fleet instead of kiting at long range using your alpha strike?

No, it was long range. Though, I like take fights at gates, so having logies would save few ships. I do believe logies did help us in a fight with a BSs: I was saved once at least and that helped me to stay longer on the grid, provide my dps, and command.
I think if we anchored logies would be even more helpful.

A newbie point of view on several of the fights, including the Tempest/Gnosis/Harbinger in particular. My max range in the Talwar was 62km (I know, better skills will improve that). I was unable to apply dps much of the time because the targets were beyond my range. A target was called, I MWD toward target, and eventually get close enough to apply dps. Then primary is switched (as from gnosis to tempest) and now I am out of range from new target. More time spent burning and not shooting. Then target is switched again.

Sorry Pronto. I can't agree we did switch DPS too often, you should have time to apply DPS.
Maybe your ships was not as fast as my, but it would not be MUCH slower. I do agree that as FC I could make better choices, for instance really to anchor and make sure we all are at the range... I will try next fleet this way. Join...? But somebody needs to step-up to be an anchor...

At the same time, consider getting your missiles skills higher: fuel range, velocity - all these matter.

I am trying to think of what the solution is. I can improve my range and speed with better skills. Partly it was due to the enemy being spread out - out of our hands. But partly it may be because I was orbiting my primary target at 50km, which may take me far from the secondary and make target switching difficult. I know I am flying a kiting fit and don't want to get too close to the enemies. Is 50km too large for an orbit? Should I try to manually pilot toward secondary while shooting primary?

I'm glad you looking to improve! 50km is good if your targeting range and missiles range are higher than 50km.
I very often use manual piloting, especially when not FCing. A simpler option is to 'keep at range 5000' to anchor. Though, less exciting, it usually helps fleet to stay together.

Very nice job Budda! Clear comms, ZERO dead air, great flow of information, kept everyone on the same page. Really excellent job.

Thanks!

In the battleship fight, for instance, we had dps on both the primary AND secondary targets.

I think this could be caused by the fact, that opposing ships did spread out and not all pilots were in range to shoot the primary. Though, They should come close to it and apply damage.

a few times, including the BS fight, we were starting at brawl range and had trouble pulling out to kite.

In the BS fight... I did not expect them jumping on top of us. Instead, it was us who was going to jump through that why we sat on the gate. Still, I believe we executed well.

Another thing that might help is a dedicated anchor.

How would you chose the orbiting range? for the smallest ship? The average range for all? Or proper one?

Personally, this was my first time flying EWAR. I had set myself to not take fleet warps, but I'm not sure that was such a good idea. I was nearly caught in a plex by a cruiser gang at one point because the fleet warp kicked in and I forgot I was exempt. So I either need to keep fleet warps on or remember to stay conscious of my warp status. Is it typical for EWAR to not take fleet warps? I can fully understand it for scouts, but EWAR (or Logi) I'm not sure. That was my major mistake. I also had the general confusions of what to target when and what to activate, but that's all a matter of practice.

This fleet I almost never warped the fleet instead asked fleet to warp at the proper range. So you should use your situational awareness and warp at something which you consider reasonable. If you know we are going to jump through the gate - warp at 0. If you know we are warping to the gate with a tackled opponent - warp at your optimal.
See also comments from other players. And I agree with Decklin: the ewar and Talwars should stick together.

Regarding payouts and sharing the donation and the loot. I am not sure what are rules and traditions. I heard that in roaming fleets, all loot goes to FC and it is up to him how to use it. In WHC it is equally split between all fleet members. In HSC - it goes to campus.
Honestly, I would like to exercise something similar to what's in WHC, but we don't have mechanism setup for this.

So, I will do as follow:

100M go to Jyo: he is an excellent scout, brought as Phantasm (unless I'm wrong), and did deserve the solid benefit.
25M go to each of logies: we all love logies! But here is a problem - I did not record logies and only know 1 person (Jared De). 2 Other logies, please do send me PM so I know whom to send payments to!

20M go to 2 other scouts: they were very crucial for the fleet!

10M go to everybody else!

Payments will be done during 12 hours, if you were in the fleet, but did not get your part - please PM me.

[Titus Tallang]

BLAP gives you a minimum missile range of ~50km (I'd need to check pyfa). Anything less than that, they didn't actually train the full plan.

(Incidentally, this is why you shouldn't skimp on these plans.)

[Pronto Pup]

Sorry Pronto. I can't agree we did switch DPS too often, you should have time to apply DPS.
Maybe your ships was not as fast as my, but it would not be MUCH slower. I do agree that as FC I could make better choices, for instance really to anchor and make sure we all are at the range... I will try next fleet this way. Join...? But somebody needs to step-up to be an anchor...

I did not mean to suggest target switching was the problem, only that I was not able to efficiently stay on the called target. And I'm certain some of that was caused by me being slow to react to commands and getting everything coordinated. It will be interesting to see what difference anchoring makes. From a learning point of view the problems I had applying damage taught me a lot of things I wouldn't have considered if I had not been responsible for my own positioning. Next time my trained skills will be a little better and maybe my flying skill will be, too.

[Ersin Oghuz]

It seems, you had hell of a roam Budda ! Nice!

[Raido Kudonen]

Nullsec is generally better than lowsec for Talwars because they have very little tank and aren't effective as a brawling/close-range doctrine. You therefore generally should not fight around FW plexes - makes life unnecessarily difficult.

Good ways to get fights in nullsec include heading up (briefly) through Placid to Pure Blind and harassing Pandemic Horde, hitting GotG ratters in Deklein after you hit Pure Blind, or scouting wormhole chains to Providence, Querious, Catch, Immensea, Esoteria, or other regions where there are a lot of carebears. Your ideal engagement is to warp in on some miners or a ratter, kill them quickly, and then kill the first wave of QRF people who try to save their miners/ratters/etc. After that you should extract and avoid serious engagements, as Talwars don't really win those unless you have ~40-50 of them and can 2-shot Guardians.